They didn’t “lie”; they suspected that, in the context of the Trump campaign, he was operating as an agent of foreign power. The report said it did not establish the connection, but I don’t read that to mean that definitively rules it out either. Even if it did rule it out, the worst you could say is that the FBI had a hunch that turned out to be wrong. It happens. It’s not a “lie.”
From the FISA linked to in the first post:
It didn’t say suspected, possibly, etc.
So, Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power all along? I knew there was something fishy about that guy!
It’s implied - it doesn’t need to be said. If they lied about something factual, that would be one thing. If the FBI had said Page had conversations with Russians when in fact he never even spoke to a Russian, that would be a lie. However, what you posted doesn’t indicate that the FBI made up false facts. What you posted suggests that they observed Page’s behavior and made judgments about the implications. That is not lying; that’s a conclusion that turned out later to be lacking material evidence. Like I said, it happens.
Those two statements aren’t even contradictory.
These are not mutually exclusive statements. The most likely explanation is that Page was known to be an agent of a foreign power in some activities and, because of his position in the election campaign, the FBI wanted to see if we was acting as a foreign agent there as well. Seems like a pretty good use of the FBI’s time.
You need evidence for a FISA on a US citizen, the Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
The application (redacted) is easily available online and discusses the evidence they had. The FBI had evidence that Page had engaged in “clandestine intelligence activities … for or on behalf of such foreign power” (page 4). They also had evidence that Russia had tried to interfere with the US election (page 5) and that Russia had made efforts to recruit Page. They filed the surveillance application in order to see if there was any fire behind the smoke.
You need evidence to convict someone of being a conscious, willing agent of a foreign power. Like Manafort. But if a suspicion arises, it needs to be checked out.
The FISA warrant process is explicit, there must be some grounds for suspicion. The FISA judge found that such grounds existed, hence the investigation. He was not required to rule on guilt or innocence, just to determine if enough smoke were present to investigate a possible fire.
As it turns out, it appears that Mr Page was little more than a bit-player, of no great importance. He had nothing to sell.
What premise are you trying to support? That if the FISA warrants for Mr Page were not entirely correct, then the whole investigation must be discounted? That any evidence uncovered must be ignored?
Also from the Carter Page FISA:
Why wasn’t Mueller able to find the evidence that the FBI used to make this claim in the FISA warrant?
The Mueller Report clearly states there was no such evidence.
No it doesn’t.
There was evidence that he was an agent for a foreign power. There was evidence that Russia attempted to recruit him. There was evidence that Russia tried to interfere with the election. The Mueller report (as far as we’ve seen) doesn’t deny any of that.
What it denies is that the ensuing investigation uncovered any evidence that the Russians were successful in their attempt to recruit Page.
I think I see a flaw in your reasoning. You seem to think that a person cannot be two things at the same time.
It is entirely possible to be an agent of a foreign government while assisting the FBI in catching a different agent of a foreign government. *
Back in the 80s, there were 2 LAPD police officers who were also mob hit men. Cops by day, contract killers on the side. If we were to apply your reasoning, the cops couldn’t be contact killers because they were active police officers. But there were doing both. Not really living up to the professional standards and ethics of either job, I grant you, but they were doing it nonetheless.
[sub]I not saying he did or didn’t, because I have no idea. I’m just saying that is possible[/sub]
Yeah, in this economy, lots of people have to get a second job. Thanks, Obama!
The Mueller report makes it clear there was no basis for the FISA because if there was the FBI agents working with Mueller would have merely had to go to their colleagues to get the evidence used to get the FISA.
The Mueller Report contradicts this, see the quote I posted from the report itself.
It would be quite easy for you to copy and paste the relevant section(s) from the mueller report that would back up your claim.
IOW - CITE?
I thought “agent of foreign power” just referred to someone who works on behalf of a foreign government? It’s perfectly legal to be an agent of a foreign power, within certain limitations (e.g. you have to register as such).
As has been pointed out several times, you have a problem reading your cites in context.
Starting an investigation based on allegations of wrongdoing obviously has a lower standard of proof than what one may expect at the conclusion of the investigation.
Just because Mueller found that Carter Page is perhaps the dullest knife in the Trump drawer, which is really saying something, doesn’t mean that a warrant to investigate Page is illegitimate.
If we listened to you, we would have nonsense where you would expect police not to start an investigation until there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt of someone’s guilt. This obviously results in a catch-22 where the facts of what happened can’t be established without an investigation; but and investigation can’t be started without all the facts being in.
The real story here is your obsession with one of the biggest dolts in America today, and making him out like he’s been oppressed like Nelson Mandela.
Nice post.
First, I’m not 100% clear of the circumstances surrounding Page’s 2013 assistance with an FBI matter, but I’m pretty sure it came about only AFTER he was caught on a wiretapped conversation offering assistance to some Russians. AFTER which he did agree to cooperate. And he did claim that his intent was not to help the Russians but to give them useless information. Which is sort of , well, maybe half of America would be inclined to believe that.
But even if an investigation clears someone, that doesn’t mean they never should’ve been investigated.
This is important to remember because Trump has been gas lighting half of America about how law enforcement works.
Andrew McCabe described the process in his book. I’m paraphrasing from memory and can’t dredge up all the details, but here’s the basic outline.
The FBI doesn’t just get a tip or hunch and decide to launch a full blown investigation. There are multiple levels of preliminary inquiry. For a FARA ( foreign agent registration) investigation, a couple of slanted Op-eds by a political consultant might be enough to launch a preliminary inquiry. An informant tip might be enough ( the recent high-profile Varsity Blues bribery cases were started because a guy being prosecuted for totally unrelated financial crimes had heard about the college admissions bribes from friends and was trying to make a deal.) My point is the bar for launching a prelimary inquiry is really low.
During the preliminary inquiry the agents can “ask around”, as it were. They may have a mutual friend go visit the suspect to poke around a bit and engage in friendly yet purposeful conversation.
If they find anything that confirms their suspicions they can escalate again, and subpoena phone* and bank records. *Just call logs, not the content of the conversations.
After this step, they can then unleash their full investigative powers. But everything is reviewed and discussed at every step.
With regards to Page, I think, given his history, that the FBI was properly alarmed when he turned up as an advisor to a major Presidential candidate. And that in and of itself would more than meet the very low bar to launch a preliminary inquiry.
And As for the clusterfucking that made them all look as guilty as hell…remember Trump is a reality TV professional. He specializes in guiding and goading his underlings to do increasingly stupid stuff to curry his favor and sabotage each other. So they were all outdoing themselves to do things like arrange ultimately worthless meetings with Russians and take credit for crimes they had nothing to do with. And to leak to the press constantly. No wonder they drew attention.
Does not imply
Another direct quote from the Mueller report: