# Why did the Founding Fathers use such flowery prose? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 19, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200 "2020-02-19T23:18:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/1 "2020-02-19T23:18:06Z")
I’m a fan of the American revolutionary era, described once by Abigail Adams as “times in which a genius would wish to live”. One of the things that has always struck me about that time was that the people most involved were prolific letter writers and tended to use such lofty prose in all of their writings (and, it seems, their speaking). The recent impeachment gave cause to review links to their writings in the federalist papers, and last night I finished the last of a three part series on George Washington which played on TV and quoted liberally from his letters, and there is a noticeable effort at eloquence that is readily apparent in both, even though the federalist papers were for public consumption and Washington had a limited formal education. As an example, consider a part of a speech George Washington gave to soldiers considering a military takeover of the fledgling government, which was failing to pay salaries, following the end of the war. This was a famous [speech](https://www.mountvernon.org/education/primary-sources-2/article/newburgh-address-george-washington-to-officers-of-the-army-march-15-1783/) where General Washington implored his men to be patient. It is generally understood that his gravitas as their leader convinced them to trust him. > [@](#): > > …For myself (and I take no merit in giving the assurance, being induced to it from principles of gratitude, veracity & justice)—a grateful sence of the confidence you have ever placed in me—a recollection of the Chearful assistance, & prompt obedience I have experienced from you, under every vicisitude of Fortune, and the sincere affection I feel for an Army, I have so long had the honor to Command, will oblige me to declare, in this public & solemn manner, that, in the attainment of compleat justice for all your toils & dangers, and in the gratification of every wish, so far as may be done consistently with the great duty I owe my Country, and those powers we are bound to respect, you may freely command my services to the utmost of my abilities. > > While I give you these assurances, and pledge my self in the most unequivocal manner, to exert whatever ability I am possesed of, in your favor—let me entreat you, Gentlemen, on your part, not to take any measures, which, viewed in the calm light of reason, will lessen the dignity, & sully the glory you have hitherto maintained—let me request you to rely on the plighted faith of your Country, and place a full confidence in the purity of the intentions of Congress; that, previous to your dissolution as an Army they will cause all your Accts to be fairly liquidated, as directed in their resolutions, which were published to you two days ago—and that they will adopt the most effectual measures in their power, to render ample justice to you, for your faithful and meritorious Services. And let me conjure you, in the name of our common Country–as you value your own sacred honor—as you respect the rights of humanity, & as you regard the Military & national character of America, to express your utmost horror & detestation of the Man who wishes, under any specious pretences, to overturn the liberties of our Country, & who wickedly attempts to open the flood Gates of Civil discord, & deluge our rising Empire in Blood. These were plain spoken military men he was talking to, was he not? Yet this is hardly plain speech. (I presume it was typical of the time, unless half the room was going “vicissitude”??) What makes it all the more remarkable is the fact that, in those times, people had to always write by hand. When I think of how laborious that is, I am perplexed by why people seemed to go out of their way to use so many words in their writing. What’s the reason? Or, perhaps more interestingly, why did it change? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/2 "2020-02-20T00:14:04Z")
It was an era when literacy was much rarer than today. They got paid by the word. Not in money, but in social status. When you used arcane words and convoluted sentence structure, you advertised your education. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/3 "2020-02-20T00:42:56Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > It was an era when literacy was much rarer than today. > > They got paid by the word. Not in money, but in social status. > > When you used arcane words and convoluted sentence structure, you advertised your education. I think you’re right, but did people think of it as “arcane words and convoluted sentence structure,” or did they think of it as “how you’re supposed to write”? That is, I suspect that people wrote that way because they heard and read other people writing that way, and thus learned what writing was “supposed” to be like. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/4 "2020-02-20T00:58:02Z")
I was under the impression that everyone back then wrote in that way. Reading a letter was pretty much the only entertainment there was. Yes, you can read a famous book, but if it was famous, someone would just summarize it for you – “Yeah, Hamlet get stabbed by a poison sword, and everyone else dies too…” A letter or newspaper article, which at that time was just an open letter, was all there was. There’s the famous letter from Washington to Layfattete when Lafayette got married, wherein Washington spends a winding paragraph to make the joke British people have been making about French men for centuries. I don’t know how fluent Lafayette was in English, but it was a long way to go for a very little joke. Also, look at this Wikipedia article regarding von Steuben: note, the author is a common soldier, name not recorded, not one of the founding fathers: [Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_von_Steuben#American_Revolution) Everyone, at the time, if they took the trouble to write something down, made it cover all points thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/5 "2020-02-20T02:26:55Z")
As obdurate stone even yields to the steady flow of gentle waters, its contours conforming to an unrelenting touch all the more imperceptible for its drowning ubiquity, so does a bath of prolix prose carve the grooves of the mind, whereupon the most humble and unassuming man may be relied upon to do likewise without an extra conscious thought. Think not this be an affectation, merely the custom of the time perpetuating itself, like begetting like even as it mingles in the mighty flow of time and is borne away, not lost, but altered. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/6 "2020-02-20T02:46:58Z")
It apparently wasn’t just the Founding Fathers. In Michael Shaara’s book “The Killer Angels” about the battle of Gettysburg, he specifies that he somewhat modernized the dialogue to make the story more accessible to modern readers, since people in the Civil War era often tended to speak in an elaborate and “flowery” way that would sound odd to 20th century ears. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/7 "2020-02-20T03:05:04Z")
People just talked like that. Read, say, _Tom Jones_, and before the end you will be used to it too. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/8 "2020-02-20T03:36:51Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think you’re right, but did people think of it as “arcane words and convoluted sentence structure,” or did they think of it as “how you’re supposed to write”? That is, I suspect that people wrote that way because they heard and read other people writing that way, and thus learned what writing was “supposed” to be like. I figured that this is a good answer. My understanding is that in that era people who were taught to read and write probably did so by reading the Bible and other ancient and revered texts. If such things are arcane and esoteric, it would lead people to write in a similar style. > [@DPRK](#): > > People just talked like that. Read, say, Tom Jones, and before the end you will be used to it too. I like that manner of speech, although I haven’t read Tom Jones. Did people of all classes speak with such formality? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/9 "2020-02-20T04:20:28Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > It was an era when literacy was much rarer than today. > > They got paid by the word. Not in money, but in social status. > > When you used arcane words and convoluted sentence structure, you advertised your education. Nah…not at all. Just watch Ken Burns’ Civil War documentary (yes, I know that was 70(ish) years later, but they still wrote that way). He uses loads of letters written at the time to tell the story. Many of which were by regular soldiers. Illiteracy may have been high at the time but for those who were literate writing was the sole means of long distance communication. Plus, reading was one of few things you could do to entertain yourself. Add in a lot of time to ponder and think while marching hundreds of miles and you have a recipe for some pretty good writing. Those guys (mostly guys in the army) wrote remarkably well. Not all I am sure but it was kind of amazing watching it how well some did. Waaaay better than a lot of the crud I read today. There is nothing wrong with writing in a poetic manner (which does not make the writing a poem). Read/listen to the [Gettysburg Address](https://youtu.be/qCXUbQ4JjXI?t=212). To my mind the finest piece of writing I have ever read. Just outstanding. Flowery? If so fine…give me more. Those people really knew how to write. The Declaration of Independence, Constitution…read the Federalist Papers or Poor Richard’s Almanack…just amazing thinking and writing. You start to realize all this is not “flowery,” which suggests empty rhetoric, but rather really well written stuff and the style is important and useful. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/10 "2020-02-20T04:37:48Z")
Since this is about literary style, let’s move this to Cafe Society. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/11 "2020-02-20T04:43:08Z")
Another factor is that the founding fathers were aware that they were in the middle of major historical events. They knew that what they were writing would be read not only by their contemporaries, but by millions of other people in future generations. So they put a little extra effort in. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/12 "2020-02-20T05:23:38Z")
You don’t have to go back that far. Here is a part of a letter from President Eisenhower to his cousin: “Mamie and I appreciated your warm note of welcome to California. The change of pace from the snowy east to bright sunshine and temperatures in the 70s may very well prolong our stay. In any event, we are looking forward to a restful and relaxing vacation…I shall be looking forward to seeing you sometime during our stay here.” When I went to school in the 1950s, we were taught how to write letters, thanking Granny for the lovely socks. Complete sentences, proper penmanship. fountain pen, sit up straight. It was a sign of respect for our fellow members of a civil society. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/13 "2020-02-20T06:37:02Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > As obdurate stone even yields to the steady flow of gentle waters, its contours conforming to an unrelenting touch all the more imperceptible for its drowning ubiquity, so does a bath of prolix prose carve the grooves of the mind, whereupon the most humble and unassuming man may be relied upon to do likewise without an extra conscious thought. Think not this be an affectation, merely the custom of the time perpetuating itself, like begetting like even as it mingles in the mighty flow of time and is borne away, not lost, but altered. Did you write that yourself? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/14 "2020-02-20T07:43:26Z")
Also, books of the time were about 30% title and chapter titles. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/15 "2020-02-20T12:10:54Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Did you write that yourself? 🙂 A search of the exact opening phrase yields no results. I would assume that at some point, this thread will get indexed, but until then… TLDR, probably yes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/16 "2020-02-20T12:45:15Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > There’s the famous letter from Washington to Layfattete when Lafayette got married, wherein Washington spends a winding paragraph to make the joke British people have been making about French men for centuries. …So, what was the joke? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/17 "2020-02-20T17:35:54Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > There’s the famous letter from Washington to Layfattete when Lafayette got married, wherein Washington spends a winding paragraph to make the joke British people have been making about French men for centuries. I don’t know how fluent Lafayette was in English, but it was a long way to go for a very little joke. I’m not sure this is accurate. Lafayette married in 1774, and stayed married until his wife’s death in 1807, but did not arrive in America until 1777, after which he first met Washington. At any rate, I can’t track down whatever letter is being referenced, so…cite? > [@Whack-A-Mole](#): > > Just watch Ken Burns’ Civil War documentary (yes, I know that was 70(ish) years later, but they still wrote that way). He uses loads of letters written at the time to tell the story. Many of which were by regular soldiers. > > Illiteracy may have been high at the time but for those who were literate writing was the sole means of long distance communication. Plus, reading was one of few things you could do to entertain yourself. > > Add in a lot of time to ponder and think while marching hundreds of miles and you have a recipe for some pretty good writing. > > Those guys (mostly guys in the army) wrote remarkably well. Not all I am sure but it was kind of amazing watching it how well some did. Waaaay better than a lot of the crud I read today. This reminds me of a [joke](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-war-is-not-without-i_b_65288) from standup comedian Greg Giraldo > [@](#): > > “I read this book recently and it was filled with letters that soldiers during the Civil War wrote to their girlfriends back home. Every letter in this book was amazing. They were like, ‘My Dearest Hannah, This morn finds me wrecked by the fiery pangs of your absence. I’ll bear your cherished memory with me as I battle the forces of tyranny and oppression.’ Now think about what the typical letter from your average Gulf War solider to his girlfriend back home in Brooklyn must have read like, ‘Dear Marie, It is hot as f-- out here. It is hard to fight these sand monkeys with your balls stuck to your legs. It is very very hot and I am very very sweetie. It is very very hot because I am in the dessert. What else did I want to axe you? Oh yeah, don’t f-- nobody til I get back.’” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/18 "2020-02-20T20:19:41Z")
Given that they didn’t assemble a committee to debate the topic of how best to write and hold everyone to it, there’s no real factual answer. The two things that I would propose as the answer, though, are: 1. Showing your class was an integral part of society. This was the case across everything, not just writing style. Washington might have worn tights and a jacket while his men wore trousers and a tunic. He would listen to classical music. His men would dance jigs. He might have eaten European food, they would have eaten potatoes and fritters.\* 2. They were bored. No TV. No radio. No internet. Sitting down and writing a lengthy letter was probably about as good of a time as one could have, to fill a few evenings. - Going from memory for these differences. Might not be the accurate examples, though the general principal is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/19 "2020-02-20T20:29:14Z")
One third possibility that also just occurred to me is that the slowness of writing might, itself, have made them write longer. If you can’t go quite as fast, you might think about the sentence that you’re on more deeply and realize that you want to extend it with exceptions and greater style. If you can just dash it off with a few taps of the finger, then you’re more able to do the “fire and forget” style of writing that bypasses the brain. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200/20 "2020-02-20T21:16:17Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > This reminds me of a [joke](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-war-is-not-without-i_b_65288) from standup comedian Greg Giraldo Not to mention the letters from [the Black NASA astronauts](https://youtube.com/watch?v=9XPCzckUcYY). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-founding-fathers-use-such-flowery-prose/848200.md?page=2)