# Why did the framers include the Chief Justice in Impeachment Trials? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180 "2020-01-09T17:34:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/1 "2020-01-09T17:34:56Z")
Why did the framers include the Chief Justice in Impeachment Trials if it wasn’t to decide fairness and rule on the law of the land? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/2 "2020-01-09T18:09:02Z")
The answer might be in the federalist papers which is where a lot of ideas came from for the constitution. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/3 "2020-01-09T18:15:27Z")
The CJ presides in _Presidential_ impeachment trials, since the Vice President, the constitutionally mandated Senate Presiding Officer has a rather big conflict of interest in such a case. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/4 "2020-01-09T18:37:10Z")
I don’t know of any references in any of the statements of the Founding Fathers, but ISTM [ul][li]The Chief Justice presides over the highest court in the land, so he should preside over a trial of the highest elected official in the land, and[/li][li]All three branches of the federal government are involved. The legislative branch is conducting the trial, the executive branch leader is the one on trial, so the legislative branch is there to act as a check on the other two branches.[/ul][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/5 "2020-01-09T18:59:27Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:4, topic:846180”] I don’t know of any references in any of the statements of the Founding Fathers, but ISTM [ul][li]The Chief Justice presides over the highest court in the land, so he should preside over a trial of the highest elected official in the land, and[/li][li]All three branches of the federal government are involved. The legislative branch is conducting the trial, the executive branch leader is the one on trial, so the legislative branch is there to act as a check on the other two branches.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Those factors are there in all impeachment trials but most of them don’t require the Chief Justice to preside. I agree with AK84; it’s because the Vice President can’t be expected to always act in an unbiased manner if the President is being impeached so he’s recused and the Chief Justice replaces him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/6 "2020-01-09T19:21:59Z")
Most impeachment trials don’t involve the chief executive officer of the United States. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/7 "2020-01-09T20:20:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Most impeachment trials don’t involve the chief executive officer of the United States. And for those, the Chief Justice does not preside. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/8 "2020-01-09T20:30:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Those factors are there in all impeachment trials but most of them don’t require the Chief Justice to preside. > > I agree with AK84; it’s because the Vice President can’t be expected to always act in an unbiased manner if the President is being impeached so he’s recused and the Chief Justice replaces him. This is especially true because in the original conception of the Constitution, the VP would be the person who ran against the current President, not with him. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/9 "2020-01-09T23:27:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > it’s because the Vice President can’t be expected to always act in an unbiased manner if the President is being impeached so he’s recused and the Chief Justice replaces him. But the jurors (Senators) can be expected to act in an unbiased way? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/10 "2020-01-09T23:40:12Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > But the jurors (Senators) can be expected to act in an unbiased way? They take an oath to “do impartial justice”. Which means McConnell and Graham can’t take the oath without committing perjury. Maybe Roberts will just refuse to swear them in. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/11 "2020-01-10T00:43:58Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > But the jurors (Senators) can be expected to act in an unbiased way? They don’t have the same inherent conflict of interest that the Vice-President has. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/12 "2020-01-10T00:45:18Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > But the jurors (Senators) can be expected to act in an unbiased way? Of course, the Constitution did not really contemplate the party system, especially the harsh partisan system that has evolved today, but I’m sure that the founders probably realized that many senators would have personal relationships with the president and perhaps could not believe that he might do anything improper. I think that is the problem with equating senators in an impeachment trial with jurors in a criminal case. First, they are judges of both law and fact whereas regular jurors only judge fact. Further, as judges, they are expected to be able to judge according to the law despite their personal biases, whereas Joe Six Pack, chosen from the community at random, would likely not be able to do so. That’s one of the reasons why jurors are forbidden from reading outside materials about the case and instructed not to start deliberating until all of the evidence comes in. I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with allowing the rest of the people in the world to have opinions on the case based upon what we have read, seen, and heard, but demand that these 100 people pretend to be blind. All that does is force them to lie about their prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/13 "2020-01-10T04:26:00Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > But the jurors (Senators) can be expected to act in an unbiased way? Senators have no direct stake in the outcome of a presidential impeachment trial in the way a Vice President would. Regardless of the outcome, they’re still going to be Senators afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/14 "2020-01-10T05:09:58Z")
Interestingly, when Andrew Johnson was impeached, there was no Vice President (as the 25th Amendment had not been passed and Johnson became President on Lincoln’s death) and the next in line for the presidency at that time was the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Benjamin Wade. There was some debate over whether Wade should cast a vote on the articles as he had a direct conflict of interest: He would be president if Johnson was convicted. In the end, he voted…to convict. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/15 "2020-01-10T05:37:45Z")
I think one of the issues is that the framers didn’t know that the Senate would choose to have an _extremely_ weak presiding officer. There was a possibility that the vice president would be extremely important in the Senate, but it quickly became the norm that the Senate wanted nothing to do with the VP and the VP just stopped showing up except when needed to break a tie. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/16 "2020-01-10T13:32:32Z")
Speaking of founding fathers: "“When a man unprincipled in private life[,] desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper . . . despotic in his ordinary demeanour — known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty — when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity — to join in the cry of danger to liberty — to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion — to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day — It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may ‘ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.’” [From Alexander Hamilton](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-12-02-0184-0002). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/17 "2020-01-10T14:14:24Z")
I think the framers thought that the Senators would honor their oaths and administer judgment in an unbiased manner, and that the CJ would preside due to the obvious conflict of interest of the VP. They did not foresee a corrupt president and a hyper-partisan Senate led by such an immoral and unscrupulous man. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/18 "2020-01-10T14:43:29Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I think one of the issues is that the framers didn’t know that the Senate would choose to have an _extremely_ weak presiding officer. There was a possibility that the vice president would be extremely important in the Senate, but it quickly became the norm that the Senate wanted nothing to do with the VP and the VP just stopped showing up except when needed to break a tie. Lyndon Johnson tried to reverse this. Johnson had been a powerful figure in the Senate and he wanted to maintain his power base there after being elected Vice President. But several Senators told Johnson that he was no longer part of the Senate and they would not let the Senate be led by an outsider. They also pointed out that Johnson himself would have done the same if some other VP had tried it when he was still a Senator. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/19 "2020-01-10T17:16:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the framers thought that the Senators would honor their oaths and administer judgment in an unbiased manner, and that the CJ would preside due to the obvious conflict of interest of the VP. They did not foresee a corrupt president and a hyper-partisan Senate led by such an immoral and unscrupulous man. Why are you complaining? Clinton was acquitted. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180/20 "2020-01-11T07:32:56Z")
The real puzzle is why they didn’t provide that the Chief Justice has to preside over an impeachment trial of the Veep. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-framers-include-the-chief-justice-in-impeachment-trials/846180.md?page=2)