# Why did the Irish language increase or revive while Hawaiian didn't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 25, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075 "2023-08-25T13:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/41 "2023-08-25T17:00:02Z")
I’m in American and I’ve never seen it spelled Katelyn, but I’ve met several Caitlins. ETA: Looks like Katelyn broke the top 100 in the 2010s, but Caitlin didn’t. ETA again: Looks like it depends on the decade, since both names bounce up and down. In the 90s, I think Kaitlin was more popular than both, but all three were in the top 100. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/42 "2023-08-25T17:02:11Z")
Even though Irish is doing better than Hawaiian, it still isnt doing very well. A hundred years of compulsory instruction in schools has produced ever shrinking numbers who are actually fluent in it, as distinct from those who have some half-remembered acquaintance with it. The revival of Irish in the late 19th/early 20th c. was bound up with reviving nationalism. Using it was a way of expressing opposition to English governance. With the English (mostly) gone there was less reason to put effort into acquiring it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/43 "2023-08-25T17:03:19Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > Is it true that in Ireland, Caitlin is a generally common spelling while in America, Katelyn is more common? The common English (as it were) version would be Catherine (Cate), no? Not sure whether a “C” or “K” spelling is more common. > [@Jagraze1](#): > > Katelyn There is no “K” in the Irish alphabet ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/44 "2023-08-25T17:10:12Z")
Caitlín in Irish is pronounced much closer to “Kathleen,” its 19th-century anglicization, than “Kate Lynn,” which is a spelling pronunciation. In Irish, that’s the correct spelling. In America, in English, the name is usually pronounced where the first syllable rhymes with “Kate,” and it’s spelled in a bewildering variety of ways. In my experience, many people with the name have no idea how its etymon is pronounced in Irish. But really, they’re two different names that are historically connected, part of the greater Katherine / Caterina family. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/45 "2023-08-25T17:14:25Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > The state of Hawaii could, for instance, declare Hawaiian a co-official language The state did in fact make English and Hawaiian co-official languages. I must have known that at some point but I forgot it. It was ratified as part of a constitutional amendment in 1978 that reads, in part, "English and Hawaiian shall be the official languages of Hawaii, except that Hawaiian shall be required for public acts and transactions only as provided by law. " ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/46 "2023-08-25T17:14:52Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > Is it true that in Ireland, Caitlin is a generally common spelling while in America, Katelyn is more common? Well, let’s not forget the big disconnect here, that Caitlin in Ireland is pronounced very close to _Cathleen_, whereas Katelyn here in the US is just _Kate-Lynn_. Sorry for the IPA illiteracy. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/47 "2023-08-25T17:15:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I thought it was one of the Polynesian Languages. Was it especially unique? The Hawaiian language has long been of interest to linguists and phoneticists because it’s an example of a language that [organically developed a considerably reduced consonant inventory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_language#Phonology) that lacked some of the most common consonants in human language: > Hawaiian is known for having very few consonant phonemes – eight: /p, k ~ t, ʔ, h, m, n, l, w ~ v/. It is notable that Hawaiian has **allophonic variation^** of [t] with [k], [w] with [v], and (in some dialects) [l] with [n]. The [t]–[k] variation is quite unusual among the world’s languages, and is likely a product both of the small number of consonants in Hawaiian, and the recent shift of historical \*t to modern [t]–[k], after historical \*k had shifted to [ʔ] **^^**. **^** _ **allophonic variation** : broadly when a language regularly permits two or more different sounds to ‘play the same role’ in words without a change in meaning. English examples exist, but may be too much of a digression to explain in a footnote._ **^^** _[ʔ] is a consonant called the glottal stop – the ‘catch in the throat’ in the middle of English ‘uh-oh’_). ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/48 "2023-08-25T17:16:01Z")
Then if you met many Caitlins in us, maybe Caitlin started getting more popular while Katelyn redeclined, right? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/49 "2023-08-25T17:20:25Z")
It really varies by decade. Here, go to town: > **[Your Name Popularity Over Time](https://babynames.com/name-popularity.php)** > > Check out the popularity of your name over time. Enter your name and watch it graph out! ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/50 "2023-08-25T17:21:00Z")
Maybe now in 2020, Katelyn as a nane declined again ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/51 "2023-08-25T17:21:47Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > only as provided by law. There is the problem right there. They should have made Hawaiian authoritative, promoted media and schools in Hawaiian, mandated it for basic public education and fluency in it for various jobs, etc. Or, at the very least, made it so Hawaiian can be used in daily life without prejudice compared to English. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/52 "2023-08-25T17:23:55Z")
You do understand that they are not the same name spelled differently, right? They are two different names, pronounced differently. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/53 "2023-08-25T17:25:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do understand that they are not the same name spelled differently, right? They are two different names, pronounced differently. Yeah, exactly! Louder for those in the back… > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Well, let’s not forget the big disconnect here, that Caitlin in Ireland is pronounced very close to _Cathleen_, whereas Katelyn here in the US is just _Kate-Lynn_. Sorry for the IPA illiteracy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/54 "2023-08-25T17:28:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They are two different names, pronounced differently. In the US, I think they would be pronounced same. At least, the Caitlins I know pronounce them Kate-lynn. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/55 "2023-08-25T17:28:51Z")
In Ireland (also in Scotland and Wales), it’s not just a question of legal status, or of schooling alone. It’s about using the language in broadcasting (across a wide range of programme genres, from news to soaps to light entertainment), and active support for a whole range of cultural activities using the language - festivals, libraries, theatre and so on. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/56 "2023-08-25T17:32:36Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > They should have made Hawaiian authoritative, promoted media and schools in Hawaiian, mandated it for basic public education and fluency in it for various jobs, etc. Both languages are equal, but one language is more equal than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/57 "2023-08-25T17:40:47Z")
Yeah but there are also positive results too ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/58 "2023-08-25T19:01:28Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > In Ireland (also in Scotland and Wales), it’s not just a question of legal status, or of schooling alone. It’s about using the language in broadcasting (across a wide range of programme genres, from news to soaps to light entertainment), and active support for a whole range of cultural activities using the language - festivals, libraries, theatre and so on. I’ve been to pubs in County Cork where only Irish is spoken, even in private conversations. That’s a level of individual commitment necessary to keep a minority language from going extinct. In other parts of Ireland, people will forget most of the Irish they were taught as soon as they leave school. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/59 "2023-08-25T19:30:01Z")
During the Covid lockdown, I did an online course in basic Irish Gaelic, and towards the end they included this short about an enthusiastic Chinese visitor who’s really put his heart and soul into learning the language, only to find he’d have to travel further to make much use of it: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/JqYtG9BNhfM/maxresdefault.jpg "Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom (2003) - Short Film") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqYtG9BNhfM) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075/60 "2023-08-25T19:58:27Z")
Yes, alas part of the problem is that by the time they got around to doing this in their constitution, the fraction of people with an actual commitment and interest had diminished too far to make it worth the expense and effort from the POV of the majority of voters in Hawaii to make it a mandatory standard. Already at the time of the original US takeover in the 1890s the kingdom had become de facto an American client state a decade prior; less than one third of the population was Native Hawaiian, already outnumbered by a large influx of Asian labor since the sugarcane trade expanded, and positions of economic/power elite had become dominated by anglophones, mostly first-generation Americans and local allies educated in Anglophone missionary schools. So there was no solid institutional base for retention of Hawaiian in education or the formal economy. Contrast that in Ireland the Irish, however opressed, never became a minority in their own land so even with the widespread adoption of English as the language of common use, the identity of the community remained primarily Irish so once there was the power to do so there was the will to use the tools of state to lift up and restore the native tongue. Even so, Gaelic is _still_ a minority language in Ireland. One of the things to bear in mind, as I have seen it touched in more than one of the OPs language threads, is that acting or not to expand or not expand or to privilege one language or another is an expression of the collective will of the community and especially when it comes to formal education, of its political structures and ruling groups. If they want to, they do; if they do not want to, they don’t until/unless persuaded otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-irish-language-increase-or-revive-while-hawaiian-didnt/989075.md?page=4)