# Why did the Justice Department fail to protect us from Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [October 18, 2024, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944 "2024-10-18T11:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/81 "2024-10-22T19:17:47Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > I do appreciate that the rabble is facing justice. But rabbles are a dime a dozen, and the rabble-rousers are still out there. > > They are still out there. But so far as I know, there’s no way to pre-prosecute people who might-could commit crimes. We have to wait until they actually commit crimes. By rabble-rousers I was talking about Trump, Guiliani, MTG, etc. Locking up the rabble without punishing these traitors accomplishes little. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/82 "2024-10-22T19:18:12Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > And I’ll ask again: If you find this system so objectionable, what system do you think should replace it? _Actual_ rule of law. Instead of just using the phrase to justify persecution and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/83 "2024-10-22T19:18:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > have read one article some time ago that indicated that the DOJ found that the material the House sent them was of considerable value. (Can’t find it now.) I’m not saying it wasn’t. But many seem to believe that only one thing can be true, and that’s the point I was making. Both investigations were of great value. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/84 "2024-10-22T19:19:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _Actual_ rule of law. Instead of just using the phrase to justify persecution and privilege. How should this happen? What should be done differently? With specifics, please. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/85 "2024-10-22T19:21:03Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > To do what? Jack Smith is a prosecutor, not an investigator. Let him sit and twiddle his thumbs while the investigation carries on? That’s not his role. Agreed. This is one point that _Law & Order_ gets right: > In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important, groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/86 "2024-10-22T19:22:12Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Both investigations were of great value. Fully agree. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/87 "2024-10-22T19:23:06Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > By rabble-rousers I was talking about Trump, Guiliani, MTG, etc. Locking up the rabble without punishing these traitors accomplishes little. But they _are_ being punished. _It takes time._ That’s what people don’t seem able to accept, and it’s absolutely nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/88 "2024-10-22T19:29:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Ooops. Sorry. That sentence should have read, The Republicans got rid of almost everybody who **did** vote to impeach Trump in the next election. > > We’ve already mentioned the turnaround from the mass of Republicans in Congress - and elsewhere - utterly condemning 1/6 the day after to the the mass of Republicans in Congress - and elsewhere - brushing it off by the end of the week. And fundamentally, that is the problem. The presidency, and in large measure, the legislature, has been bought and paid for by some set of special interests since before World War II. That became more apparent during the Reagan, (GHW) Bush, and Clinton eras, and then completely obvious during W. Bush’s tenure, but throughout all of those there was at least an incentive of keeping the country functioning. In the last decade and a half, the GOP has become a completely obstructionist, self-cannibalizing quasi-polity that no longer has any interest in governing anything or ensuring the long term well being of the nation, or even the interests of corporate backers; it now serves a weird cabal of ‘dark money’ billionaires, Evangelicals, and tech bros who have a spectrum of increasingly disturbing beliefs and apocalyptic visions of various flavors to the extent that even Jonathon Swift would have difficulty effectively satirizing them. Donald Trump has become their standard bearer, in part due to his ‘charisma’ but also because he is such a fungible of somewhat incoherent mouthpiece which can be manipulated by anyone in or offering power. That Trump’s spastic impulses are not as easily controlled as Newt Gingrich, Mitch McConnell, et cetera expected is not due to any ideological independences but just because Trump is essentially a feral and increasingly mentally incontinent creature with less attention span than a squirrel. And it can get worse; as much of an autocrat as Trump is, and as venal as the GOP leadership has become, they end up tripping on their own petards when trying to make any progress. The Project 2025 agenda gives a roadmap toward a fascist ethnonationalist state but you can almost bet on Trump immediately mangling it or assigning completely incompetent bumblers to key positions even as the ‘advisors’ behind the curtain to direct him. But odds are pretty good that a hypothetical President Trump wouldn’t make it through another term, which leaves President J.D. Vance, a bobbleheaded mannequin who is completely in the pocket of Peter Thiel and ideologically completely aligned with White Christian Nationalists and all kinds of perverse fuckery that would astonish even Margaret Atwood. I’m not really a fan of Scott Galloway and even less of Kara Swisher (whose newfound counter-technovangelism is somewhat hollow if you’ve looked at her history) but I can’t argue against their points in this recent video: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/K3qb8bB5r5Q/maxresdefault.jpg "Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and the Political Calculus of a Trump Victory | Pivot") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3qb8bB5r5Q) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/89 "2024-10-22T19:33:04Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > By rabble-rousers I was talking about Trump, Guiliani You’ll be happy to learn that Rudy Giuliani was just ordered to place his assets into a receivership. Under the control of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/90 "2024-10-22T19:44:59Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > By rabble-rousers I was talking about Trump, Guiliani, MTG, etc. Locking up the rabble without punishing these traitors accomplishes little. > > But they _are_ being punished. _It takes time._ That’s what people don’t seem able to accept, and it’s absolutely nothing new. Unfortunately, we only get four years between elections. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > By rabble-rousers I was talking about Trump, Guiliani > > You’ll be happy to learn that Rudy Giuliani was just ordered to place his assets into a receivership. Under the control of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. Yes, I’m delighted. And Trump (if not re-elected) could lose much of his net worth thanks to E. Jean Carroll. I wonder if civil actions could have done more to hobble him than the slow wheels of Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/91 "2024-10-22T19:48:26Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I wonder if civil actions could have done more to hobble him than the slow wheels of Justice. I would say it’s more likely state actions over federal ones. The State of New York has not been impeded as much as the federal actions have been. There’s far more corruption at the federal level now. Think of that. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/92 "2024-10-22T19:50:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _Actual_ rule of law. Instead of just using the phrase to justify persecution and privilege. But it seems that what you want _is_ “persecution and privilege”, just on your terms; literally persecution of a political leader you don’t like (with good reason, IMO) and the privilege of being able to prevent him from not only holding the office but influencing the public. The harsh truth is that aside from some fairly petty financial fraud and serious but not totally unprecedented obstruction and election interference charges, virtually all of the allegations against Trump—especially those involving insurrection and ‘treason’—do not meet any standard of evidence that would hold up in court. And even if they did, and a conviction were obtained, it would not prevent him from being able to run for the office of President with the full blessing and support of the GOP. The real problem here isn’t that crimes are being unpunished and justice is not being ‘fairly’ meted out (which it never really is); it is that large swaths of the American public are completely amenable and even supportive of a proto-fascist would-be autocrat enabled by one of the two ‘real’ political parties. That isn’t a problem any prosecutor or court can fix regardless of evidence of crimes presented for trial. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/93 "2024-10-22T19:53:43Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > To the “it takes years” folks: WHY does it take years? Well, see you have to make sure all your ducks are in a row, and with trump doing his delay tactics, it is hard to get subpoenas done, etc, With your average thug, you can arrest and indict, knowing the trail wont come up for a while, and even arrest and indictment hurts the perp. Not so with a man with unlimited legal resources, and in his special case- a “not guilty” would mean trump wins the election. > [@Spoons](#): > > Yes. Every allegation has to be researched as to whether is is prosecutable or if it is, then whether it is defendable. Note that this is not an investigation; those turn up allegations. If your research into the allegation is sound, with solid cites (if this sounds like the SDMB, it’s not much different), then you can proceed with prosecuting or defending the allegation. Yep. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If the government was _actually_ interested in enforcing the law against the wealthy Trump would have been thrown in prison decades ago. For what crimes? Let us look at your long history- _1970s Federal investigators [accuse Trump and his father of discriminating against Black New Yorkers,in renting out apartments. Case settles with no admission of guilt…2000 Federal securities regulators cite one of Trump’s casinos for downplaying negative results in financial reporting. 2010- Federal securities regulators cite one of Trump’s casinos for downplaying negative results in financial reporting._ **All either civil violations or actions against his corporations. Nothing criminal.** > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The real question is : “Why did Congress fail to protect the American people from Trump?” It can be reworded- _why did the GOP fail to protect the American people from Trump?_ Politics. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So there’s the legal research: what have the courts said is necessary to prove A, B and C? How clear-cut are the precedents to tell you what you need for each element? What kind of evidence have the courts accepted in the past, and what have they rejected? > > Then the prosecutors have to ask themselves, “Do we have evidence to prove each element?” Yep, great points. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/94 "2024-10-22T20:30:12Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > The gnarled, malevolent hand of Merrick Garland can also be seen in the choice to immediately prosecute “from the bottom up,” meaning the insurrectionists who carried out the violence on January 6th. It’s a completely normal way for investigations to be done, but that Merrick Garland… This wasn’t a normal situation. This was a stupid decision, since there is no direct ties from the bottom to the top. Treating it like a mob protection was a stupid decision. It was clear there would be little to find that shows Trump giving direct orders to his cult. There’s not great organizational chart they can follow up from the bottom. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Merrick Garland must have been constantly whispering in Trump’s ear to always waive time to prolong his judicial proceedings. It’s pretty standard stuff for a guilty defendant – _any guilty defendant_ – to spool out the time it takes to bring a case to trial, but there must have been vile intent in the heart of Merrick Garland when he forced Trump to do it. “Try every doorknob, rattle every window, in your efforts to slow down the proceedings!” he must have implored. > > And surely Merrick Garland was responsible for the fact that Trump has more doorknobs and windows to rattle than any defendant before him, due to his being _the very first sitting president to be tried for felony crimes_. Damn, that must’ve taken some extraordinary planning on the part of Merrick Garland! > > The shocking delay by the Supreme Court when Trump appealed to them on the nonsensical (should have been, anyway) immunity issue? Wicked chicken shit Merrick Garland really outdid himself on that one, getting the SCOTUS to delay their decision from December of 2023 until July 2024! A ruling that, incidentally, ensured that no trial could possibly be held ahead of the election. Pure malicious genius by _Merrick Garland_! Nice straw men. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/06/19/fbi-resisted-opening-probe-into-trumps-role-jan-6-more-than-year/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/06/19/fbi-resisted-opening-probe-into-trumps-role-jan-6-more-than-year/) Garland has to be shamed into actually investigating. Adam Schiff called him out several times. The congressional committee took about a year and basically embarrassed the DOJ. That’s when he appointed Jack Smith. And, yes, the voters and Senate Republicans also failed. So did the Supreme Court. And I see lots of people putting blame thee. I don’t see how this exonerates Garland. It was no surprise that the voters and congress failed us. Nor that the Supreme Court that is dominated by very conservative judges did too. That a DOJ ran by someone nominated by a Democrat did too was very disheartening. Not a complete surprise I suppose, but more of a surprise than our other guardrails failing. I can’t wait for Kamala to replace him. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/95 "2024-10-22T20:37:24Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > This wasn’t a normal situation. This was a stupid decision, since there is no direct ties from the bottom to the top. Untrue. Mike Flynn, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon and Rudy Giuliani were all go-betweens between Trump and the mob. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > Garland has to be shamed into actually investigating. Adam Schiff called him out several times. Your cited article says nothing of the kind. From the article: > A wariness about appearing partisan, institutional caution, and clashes over how much evidence was sufficient to investigate the actions of Trump and those around him all contributed to the slow pace. Garland and the deputy attorney general, Lisa Monaco, charted a cautious course aimed at restoring public trust in the department while some prosecutors below them chafed, feeling top officials were shying away from looking at evidence of potential crimes by Trump and those close to him, The Post found. Adam Schiff is not and was not the last word on what was going on inside the DOJ. I watched him flog that narrative many times and I lost a lot of respect for him over it. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > I can’t wait for Kamala to replace him. You’re going to be disappointed in this, I think. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/96 "2024-10-22T20:54:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hell I have seen signs “I am voting for the Felon”. I live in New Jersey, you’ll have to be more specific. (Just kidding. I don’t live in New Jersey.) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/97 "2024-10-22T20:56:57Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > But they _are_ being punished. _It takes time._ That’s what people don’t seem able to accept, and it’s absolutely nothing new. I think one of the problems is that you can commit a crime in seconds and it takes years for justice to come to the perpetrator. People see that disparity and it doesn’t look right. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/98 "2024-10-22T20:58:35Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I think one of the problems is that you can commit a crime in seconds and it takes years for justice to come to the perpetrator. People see that disparity and it doesn’t look right. It depends- if the crime is violent, the Police etc react right away. But not for white collar crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/99 "2024-10-22T21:01:59Z")
Believe me, I do understand the frustration. No one wants Trump doing hard time more than I do. But I had a front row seat watching justice be done for many years, and the one thing I learned is that it is S-L-O-W. Not just for Trump. For lots and lots of people. This is simply nothing new, and everyone seems so surprised by that. They shouldn’t be. Let me add this: We’re in for _years_ more of waiting till DOJ is done with Trump. And none of that will be the fault of Merrick Garland. An ounce of prevention, as they say… IOW, don’t elect the criminals in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944/100 "2024-10-22T21:45:37Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Let me add this: We’re in for _years_ more of waiting till DOJ is done with Trump. Frankly, even with his remarkably inept legal counsel, Trump will probably be in the ground before he actually has to face a sentence. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > An ounce of prevention, as they say… IOW, don’t elect the criminals in the first place. Unfortunately [that is easier said than done](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes), although most corrupt politicians are quite cheaply bought and don’t really aspire to incite insurrection. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-justice-department-fail-to-protect-us-from-trump/1008944.md?page=6)