# Why did the people not overthrow Stalin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370 "2013-10-16T02:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/21 "2013-10-16T19:06:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s a very patronizing thing to say. It’s not patronizing and it’s true. From all my conversations with hundreds of people who lived through that era, most people were completely brainwashed into considering Stalin a perfect leader. Superhuman. Several people I talked to told me, kinda chuckling, but honestly, they they could not possibly imagine Stalin going to the bathroom. Most Westerners do not realize what constant, unrelenting, cradle to grave, 24/7 brainwashing assault can achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/22 "2013-10-16T19:08:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not if you were a cousin of Napoleon’s :). > Joke aside, it got better as conquest followed conquest, pillage led to pillage. But the early post-Revolutionary days and the Terror ? Yeah, not a pic-nic. Sure, I know about the Terror, but I was asking specifically about Napoleon’s reign - I thought the Terror was mostly over by the time he came to power? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/23 "2013-10-16T19:22:36Z")
The terror was over for the most part, yes - but for one thing pretty much every other European nation wanted a piece of France (which led to a bit of austerity - they say some of the Republican levies that fought in Italy didn’t even have shoes) ; and for another despite his popular appeal Napoleon still was a paranoid autocrat with secret police, vanishing of prominent political opponents and all. His rise to power was essentially sold to the people on the “bring back law and order” ticket, and so he did, quite ruthlessly. He wasn’t the \*worst \*autocrat out there perhaps (in fact, he did a lot of good for France, and for some of his conquests as well), but again, the very real threats he faced in his early reign meant that expedient measures were adopted across the board. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/24 "2013-10-16T19:23:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s a very patronizing thing to say. > Yes, WW2-era Russia was still quite “rustic”, but that doesn’t mean its people were _morons_. If the Soviet zeitgeist had a crippling defect back then it wasn’t stupidity but fatalism. The people had had great hopes w/ the Revolution, only to see them all trampled underfoot one by one by Stalin. That’d sour a dude on the whole thing alright. > > Besides, for all the purges and mass murders and gulags, Stalin still did improve the life of the average Russian in many ways - improved mechanization (particularly out in the fields), heavy industry and little unemployment, railroads and power everywhere, cheap housing, decent and functional healthcare (if a bit… unaesthetic is the most charitable way to put it I think), cinema for the masses as well. Bear in mind that the Great Purge and its attendant show trials provided convenient scapegoats for the failures of the Revolution. It didn’t have to be Stalin’s fault, when all the state-controlled media was broadcasting the confessions of sabateurs and counter-revolutionaries. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/25 "2013-10-16T19:40:44Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Was it really so bad under the Czar that this was a better alternative? Generally speaking, yes, and certainly things were a lot better for most people during most of Stalin’s reign than they were during the civil war that followed the revolution, which (a) happened before Stalin became the top leader, and (b) could be blamed at least as much on the anti-Communists (and the aftereffects of defeat in WWI) as on the Communists. The worst stuff that happened to most Russians during Stalin’s reign was the fault of Hitler. Purges and Gulags only directly affected a relative minority of the population. Stalin left Russia a much richer, more powerful nation than it had been when he first took it over, or when Lenin first took it over, come to that. When he died, Russia was a superpower, something it had been nowhere near being before the Revolution. Sure, getting there involved a lot of pain, cruelty, and simple error, but the Russian people had been used to pain, cruelty and error from their rulers for centuries. This time it actually got them somewhere! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/26 "2013-10-16T20:03:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Bear in mind that the Great Purge and its attendant show trials provided convenient scapegoats for the failures of the Revolution. It didn’t have to be Stalin’s fault, when all the state-controlled media was broadcasting the confessions of sabateurs and counter-revolutionaries. I’ll grant you that, but either way, things had been horrible under the Czars, things were still excessively crappy under Stalin, so in there eyes there was a good case for “even if we overthrew the ruling establishment (again), things would still end up being shit”. Soviets as a culture tended to just grin, bear it and crack jokes about how terrible everything was, in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/27 "2013-10-16T20:57:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yup. Stalin was very good at eliminating anybody who might pose a threat to his leadership. He eventually killed off his entire original inner circle. “General Secretary of the CPSU” was originally supposed to be a minor administrative & technical role that Stalin got because nobody else wanted; after Lenin died he transformed into supreme leader of the USSR as part of his consolidation of power. Stalin is also the reason why Soviet leaders were referred to as “premier” in English. During WWII he needed to add an official _government_ position to himself to clarify diplomatic protocol (prior to that he was “only” the head of the party). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/28 "2013-10-16T21:09:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … so in \*\*there \*\*eyes there was a … Ugh, shoot me now. That would be “their”, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/29 "2013-10-16T21:12:34Z")
There were quite large rebellions in some districts. And they were put down with artillery and aerial bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/30 "2013-10-16T21:41:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s a very patronizing thing to say. I’ve got more patronizing things to say if you want them. From what I understand of Stalinist Russia, Stalin’s cult of personality had elevated him to a god. Whatever went wrong in the USSR was blamed on local government officials, not the top down leadership. Saddam Hussein tried to base his dictatorship (at least in part) on Stalin’s and was a fan of Stalins work. The Stalinist cult of personality works pretty well in North Korea and worked pretty well in Mao’s China too. Create a cult of personality, then if anything goes wrong blame it on lower officials. So no, I don’t think I’m wrong in saying the Russians were brainwashed into thinking Stalin was not evil and into loving him. It isn’t like the people knew Stalin was the one behind their suffering. The refrain ‘if only Stalin knew’ reflects this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/31 "2013-10-17T01:54:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Some were paranoid. Some were not, and were brainwashed into loving Stalin like their father (in a lot of cases more than their fathers), and the heresy of even thinking of him as imperfect would never have entered their minds. I find this hard to believe. Maybe it’s true in North Korea, where you’ve had three generations of “Beloved Leaders” in power. But Stalin was in power for around twenty-five years. People could remember there was a time when Stalin hadn’t been in power and hadn’t been the all-powerful leader. The average citizen might have accepted that Stalin was in power now but they wouldn’t have seen this as something that was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/32 "2013-10-17T02:21:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sure, I know about the Terror, but I was asking specifically about Napoleon’s reign - I thought the Terror was mostly over by the time he came to power? By five years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/33 "2013-10-17T02:23:54Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Some people owe their powerful position to Stalin and would lose power and perhaps their life if he was overthrown. Look at what happened to [Lavrentiy Beria](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beria#Downfall)! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/34 "2013-10-17T02:27:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Was life in France under Napoleon particularly bad? Not in material terms, but it was the nearest thing to a modern police state the technology of the time would allow, and men were always getting drafted to fight in Napoleon’s self-aggrandizing wars, and he was the sort of general who would expend the blood of his men as readily as a fireman expends water. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/35 "2013-10-17T02:28:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I find this hard to believe. Maybe it’s true in North Korea, where you’ve had three generations of “Beloved Leaders” in power. But Stalin was in power for around twenty-five years. People could remember there was a time when Stalin hadn’t been in power and hadn’t been the all-powerful leader. The average citizen might have accepted that Stalin was in power now but they wouldn’t have seen this as something that was inevitable. Again, you’re underestimating the power of 24/7, relentless, all-pervasive brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/36 "2013-10-17T02:33:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Soviets as a culture tended to just grin, bear it and crack jokes about how terrible everything was, in my experience. Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev were riding the train to Communism, and the locomotive broke down. They all got out to inspect it. LENIN: All right, comrades, let’s all roll up our sleeves and push, and maybe we can get it moving again! STALIN: I’ve got a better idea. Let’s go back to the train yard, shoot everybody who had anything to do with building this locomotive, get a new crew together, build a new locomotive and start over! KHRUSHCHEV: Look, we’re in no hurry. Let’s just walk. BREZHNEV: That’s a lot of bother. Let’s just get back on board, pull down the shades, and pretend we’re moving. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/37 "2013-10-17T02:42:54Z")
A guy walks into the famous GUM department store in Moscow and asks a clerk where he can find a sewing machine. The clerk laughs. “Find a sewing machine in Moscow?! Go to Tula, where they make them!” “I **live** in Tula. The stores there don’t have any sewing machines either.” “Well, go to the factory.” “I **work** in the sewing-machine factory. I still can’t get one.” “You work in the factory?! Well, then here’s what you do: Swipe the parts one at a time, take them home, and build your own sewing machine!” “I tried that. I tried it three times.” “Well, what’s wrong? Couldn’t you put the parts together?” “Oh, I could put them together, all right. But every time I did, I got a machine gun!” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/38 "2013-10-17T03:26:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you’re underestimating the power of 24/7, relentless, all-pervasive brainwashing. Sure, you can brainwash an individual by isolating him away from any outside influences and focusing intense efforts on him by teams operating round the clock. But who is going to do that to millions of people? You can’t give an entire country “24/7, relentless, all-pervasive brainwashing”. At best, you give them maybe a hour or two a day of passive propaganda. This is Winston Smith in the early chapters of _1984_ when he had his doubts about Big Brother. It wasn’t until they locked him up they could really focus on converting him. That’s what the average Soviet citizen would have been like during Stalin’s regime. Sure they would have heard a lot of pro-Stalin propaganda but they wouldn’t have been reduced to a state of mindlessness. Most of them would have just been getting on with their regular lives while trying not to call attention to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/39 "2013-10-17T04:17:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sure, you can brainwash an individual by isolating him away from any outside influences and focusing intense efforts on him by teams operating round the clock. > > But who is going to do that to millions of people? Any ruler of the Russians, I fear. Putin has managed it quite well, and neither he nor Stalin nor Lenin was the first. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370/40 "2013-10-17T04:22:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev were riding the train to Communism, and the locomotive broke down. […] Oh, are we doing Soviet jokes, now ? The glorious Soviet Union is the most progressive country on Earth ! It was already better yesterday than it’s going to be tomorrow ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-people-not-overthrow-stalin/671370.md?page=3)