# Why did the USA/Israel insisted on the Hamas taking part in Palestine's elections? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229 "2009-01-14T06:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/41 "2009-02-02T01:31:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because George W. Bush is an idiot who thinks that America is synonymous with Freedom and Democracy, making it is impossible for any free electorate to ever elect an enemy of the U.S - and despite common perceptions, Israel generally does what the U.S. tells it to do. I agree with this also. Bush was stupid. Israel was stupid. They wanted to legitimize Fatah by showing the world that that Palestinian people chose it over Hamas, but the Palestinians had other ideas. It was a gamble and the US and Israel lost ---
**Author:** ![edivincison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@edivincison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edivincison)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/42 "2009-02-02T09:40:52Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I can’t tell whether you’re whooshing us. If not, the answer is “no, America isn’t paying people to attack Israel.” Does this mean you’re considering yourself the sole authorized spokesman for whole America? How can you be so sure not to tell a lie? (And how can I be sure you’re not getting paid – or maybe going henceforth to be paid – for telling lies?) Everybody denounces Israel’s disproportionate action. Why not denounce the Hamas’ inversely disproportionate action, i.e. the mere tickling of the south of Israel over such an extended period? If the Hama’s actions were so strongly motivated by irrepressible hatred, as we do believe indeed, why don’t they send their kamikazes right to central places in Israel? And how about Israel’s surgical operation killing a Hamas leader, his four wives, and his eleven children? Is this the type of man supposed to foster fiercest retaliation whatever the consequences? Don’t you think he rather might have been a moderate character with a sound sense of responsibility for so many family members living in the same house? I see this as an indication that he had to be eliminated as a spoilsport threatening to denounce the consensual confrontation between Tsahal and Hamas – much like some would want to denounce the consensual match Valuev vs Holyfield (which takes us back to Arafat’s supposed role as an US-paid sparring partner of Israel…) Now of course the first reaction I’m expecting is: “This dirty fucker deserved it well”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/43 "2009-02-02T09:54:38Z")
> [@edivincison](#): > > If the Hama’s actions were so strongly motivated by irrepressible hatred, as we do believe indeed, why don’t they send their kamikazes right to central places in Israel? Because we’ve gotten very good at stopping them. > [@edivincison](#): > > And how about Israel’s surgical operation killing a Hamas leader, his four wives, and his eleven children? Is this the type of man supposed to foster fiercest retaliation whatever the consequences? Don’t you think he rather might have been a moderate character with a sound sense of responsibility for so many family members living in the same house? How is staying with your family when you know you’re a target showing responsibility? I mean, even Mafia bosses have the decency to leave their families behind when they go to the mattresses. Look, we have a saying around here: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Your claims have been pretty damn extraordinary (which is one way to put it). Where is your extraordinary evidence? ---
**Author:** ![edivincison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@edivincison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edivincison)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/44 "2009-02-02T16:51:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Look, we have a saying around here: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Your claims have been pretty damn extraordinary (which is one way to put it). Where is your extraordinary evidence? My extraordinary “claims” (alias questions and guesses, to put it right) are pointing towards presumable evidence whithheld from the public by extraordinarily well organized cover-up structures – so you can’t blame me for being unable to produce such evidence. As an extraordinary claim, I would summon those who know of any collateral evidence, to come up with it on this forum to help putting together the puzzle. And just to witness my good faith in objecting to **Alessan** ’s interpretation of my hypotheses and questions as being extraordinary “claims”, here again the central “claim” I posted on this thread: \*_Was Arafat paid by the US government to act as Israel’s sparring partner to provide the Hebrew State – officially the homeland of the Jews, but actually a US-controlled_ military stronghold near the Arab oil fields – an alibi to entertain a strong army in a permanent state of war-readiness? \*\* - ‘US-controlled’ added (where US is of course to be considered as kind of an ominous black box) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/45 "2009-02-02T21:32:57Z")
So you have nothing to back your claim. Right. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/46 "2009-02-03T00:11:46Z")
No no **Alessan** , the _lack_ of evidence is proof of his theory - only if true would they cover up the evidence so well that it would look like it didn’t exist at all! Sly buggers. Back to the op: What were the possible outcomes?[ol] [li]Fatah won a fair election - which they would have had not for the fact that they ran stupidly - and were legitimatized as the sole leadership.[/li][li]Hamas won and moderated once in power.[/li][li]Hamas won and did not moderate. Failed and were quickly kicked out next round.[/li][li]Hamas won, didn’t moderate, and then took over Gaza.[/li][/ol] Honestly I don’t think too many expected #4 and the others were all reasonable options. OTOH, the alternative, a Fatah in power but without clear popular support, and with a Hamas mixed among them tearing them down and engaged in attacks from the West Bank, was an option even worse than what we’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/47 "2009-02-03T00:56:00Z")
> [@edivincison](#): > > My extraordinary “claims” (alias questions and guesses, to put it right) are pointing towards presumable evidence whithheld from the public by extraordinarily well organized cover-up structures – so you can’t blame me for being unable to produce such evidence. And if **edivincison** vanishes from this thread to post no more, that would be compelling evidence for the coverup/conspiracy. Then again, continued posting in this foolish vein might be part of an subtler disinformation campaign designed to get us to dismiss the existence of the coverup. Mossad is tricky, very tricky. 😕:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/48 "2009-02-03T06:16:01Z")
I just love the fact that he seems to be implying that Theodor Herzl was a paid agent of Grover Cleveland. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/49 "2009-02-04T01:17:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I just love the fact that he seems to be implying that Theodor Herzl was a paid agent of Grover Cleveland. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229/50 "2009-02-04T20:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Why did the USA/Israel insisted on the Hamas taking part in Palestine’s elections? Do you have any source/links ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-usa-israel-insisted-on-the-hamas-taking-part-in-palestines-elections/481229.md?page=2)