# Why did the "Wizard of Oz" movie resonate so powerfully for some gay men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 25, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562 "2002-11-25T00:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/1 "2002-11-25T00:26:29Z")
The Wizard of Oz is playing on the WB right now and I was wondering why this movie became a cultural touchstone for many gay men. Is it whole Judy Garland thing or is there some subtext to it that resonated for gay men at the time. Is it the over the rainbow theme? Help me, I don’t have my decoder ring. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/2 "2002-11-25T00:41:38Z")
[The Spirituality of Oz](http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/6396/ozspirit.htm) addresses that issue. ---
**Author:** ![airdisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@airdisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/airdisc)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/3 "2002-11-25T00:44:20Z")
Judy Garland was a real big supporter of gay rights, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/4 "2002-11-25T02:15:32Z")
I tried to spy the guy killing himself in the Tin Woodman scene, but to no avail. Just saw that bird in the background. ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/5 "2002-11-25T02:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnT \* > \*\*I tried to spy the guy killing himself in the Tin Woodman scene, but to no avail. Just saw that bird in the background. \*\* [Because there never was a suicide](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_016.html), quoth the Master. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/6 "2002-11-25T02:58:21Z")
Sarcasm hat not on tonight, Peep? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/7 "2002-11-25T02:59:53Z")
Because the ruby red slippers are just FABULOUS!!! ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/8 "2002-11-25T03:02:35Z")
I hope I don’t get kicked out of the little pink clubhouse for this, but I don’t like **The Wizard of Oz** all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/9 "2002-11-25T04:05:12Z")
I watch _The Wizard of Oz_ twice a year. It’s on par with _Citizen Kane_ and _Sunset Boulevard_ for me. I’m heterosexual, as near as I can tell. Maybe it has general appeal for liberal types? I’m serious, here. The books certainly had some promethean ideas for the time. _The Marvelous Land of Oz_, for instance features an _Army of Revolt_, made up entirely of girls, who declare that men have ruled Oz for too long. Ahead of its time for the turn-of-the-century. (Then again, the girls _were_ preoccupied with looking pretty and gossiping, but still…) And of course, that book ended with the protagonist, Tip, discovering that the Princess Ozma, with whom he was charged with rescuing, was… …him. > [@](#): > > “I!” cried Tip, in amazement. “Why, I’m no Princess Ozma – I’m not a girl!” Glinda smiled, and going to Tip she took his small brown hand within her dainty white one “You are not a girl just now” said she, gently, “because Mombi transformed you into a boy. But you were born a girl, and also a Princess; so you must resume your proper form, that you may become Queen of the Emerald City.” “Oh, let Jinjur be the Queen!” exclaimed Tip, ready to cry. “I want to stay a boy, and travel with the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman, and the Woggle- Bug, and Jack – yes! and my friend the Saw-Horse – and the Gump! I don’t want to be a girl!” “Never mind, old chap,” said the Tin Woodman, soothingly; “it don’t hurt to be a girl, I’m told; and we will all remain your faithful friends just the same. And, to be honest with you, I’ve always considered girls nicer than boys.” “They’re just as nice, anyway,” added the Scarecrow, patting Tip affectionately upon the head. “And they are equally good students,” proclaimed the Woggle-Bug. “I should like to become your tutor, when you are transformed into a girl again.” “But – see here!” said Jack Pumpkinhead, with a gasp: “if you become a girl, you can’t be my dear father any more!” “No,” answered Tip, laughing in spite of his anxiety. “and I shall not be sorry to escape the relationship.” Then he added, hesitatingly, as he turned to Glinda: “I might try it for awhile,-just to see how it seems, you know. But if I don’t like being a girl you must promise to change me into a boy again.” Probably something of an affirmation and comfort to transgendered adolescents, that. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/10 "2002-11-25T04:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m serious, here. The books certainly had some promethean ideas for the time. The Marvelous Land of Oz, for instance features an Army of Revolt, made up entirely of girls, who declare that men have ruled Oz for too long. Ahead of its time for the turn-of-the-century. (Then again, the girls were preoccupied with looking pretty and gossiping, but still…) Actually, most of the “Oz” books were written during the women’s suffragette movement of the early 1900’s. So, like many other issues of this period (e.g., free silver, agrarian reform, etc.), Baum was just incorporating then-current events into his stories. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/11 "2002-11-25T05:07:13Z")
Weren’t the shoes actually silver in the book? I watched it as a child-I always wanted Ruby Slippers. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/12 "2002-11-25T05:13:43Z")
Absolutely, **NDP** – I didn’t mean to imply that his sentiment sprung up in a vacuum, but the ideals of the Women’s Suffrage movement were hardly considered mainstream then, and women wouldn’t win the vote for another sixteen years at the time of _The Marvelous Land of Oz_’s publication. **Guin** , thas’ right-- but Silver Shoes wouldn’t look nearly as magical in Technicolor. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/13 "2002-11-25T06:29:05Z")
The original title of the novel, wisely changed by the publishers, was “Will and Dorothy”…Timmy ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/14 "2002-11-25T11:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnT \* > \*\*Sarcasm hat not on tonight, Peep? 😉 \*\* I guess not, I still don’t get it:confused: ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/15 "2002-11-25T12:30:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*I’m heterosexual, as near as I can tell. Maybe it has general appeal for liberal types? \*\* Nope, I’m right of Reagan and I love the Oz books and the movie (the movie not as much because I don’t like Judy Garland’s wimpification of Dorothy. In the book, she was much more a participant than a victim (she douses the witch because she’s pissed, not because she fumbles her attempt to save the Scarecrow, for instance) ) \*\* > [@](#): > > I’m serious, here. The books certainly had some promethean ideas for the time. _The Marvelous Land of Oz_, for instance features an _Army of Revolt_, made up entirely of girls, who declare that men have ruled Oz for too long. Ahead of its time for the turn-of-the-century. (Then again, the girls _were_ preoccupied with looking pretty and gossiping, but still…) \*\* Yeah, but in part, that was because Baum’s…um…er…mother-in-law(? Aunt?) who he loved dearly, was a sufferagate and he was poking fun at her (gently). \*\* > [@](#): > > And of course, that book ended with the protagonist, Tip, discovering that the Princess Ozma, with whom he was charged with rescuing, was… …him.Probably something of an affirmation and comfort to transgendered adolescents, that. \*\* \*\* Heh. You should try another of Baum’s books (it was rarer than hell, but now it’s in the public domain and can be found on-line) called **John Dough and the Cherub**. “Chick the Cherub” is an incubator baby, and thus, has either no or both genders (why an “incubator baby” wouldn’t have a gender is a mystery best left unexamined). Point is, as weird as the Tip/Ozma thing is for a turn-of-the-Century children’s book, **John Dough and the Cherub** is probably weirder! (There were newspaper contests to determine Chick’s gender) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/16 "2002-11-25T13:57:50Z")
There was a TV adaptaion of , I think, **The Land of Oz** back in the early 1960s that had the whole Ozma gender-change thing in it. It has, to my knowledge, never been replayed or offered on video casette or DVD or laserdisc. I suspect that those were more innocent times (there was a Superboy story about the same time, where Clark turned into a girl. He acquired “super feminine intuition”!), and the sexual theme didn’t really occur to people or bother them. Nowadays people are a lot more sensitive to transgender stuff, and stay away from it. Although I notice that an episode of **Jimmy Neutron** has him switching bodies with Cindy. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/17 "2002-11-25T14:17:55Z")
Yeah, the “Land of Oz” thing was (IIRC) from the “Mickey Mouse Club” as an hour(?) long playlet. AFAIK, you’re right, it’s never been released (but per the Wizard of Oz club articles that I read back when, it was supposed to be really good). In the Superboy story (I believe it was the '50s, as I think the art was by George Papp(?)) Superboy made a snotty “women driver” comment to a female alien who’d crashed her flying saucer here and she zapped him with a ray that made him dream that he was “Super Sister”. You _gotta_ miss those days. They just don’t make weirdness like that any more. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/18 "2002-11-25T14:47:38Z")
I read that Tip/Ozma book when I was a kid, and it sure did resonate with _me_. As for the movie _The Wizard of Oz_, it’s about a kid in a gray, dismal place where no one understands her and all her hopes and ambitions for herself are being trampled. She whisked away to a magical land where people appreciate her, where she’s finally “in color” and can live a life of her own, one that Auntie Em and Uncle Henry could never understand or approve of. No wonder gay kids empathize! My only question is why the idiot chooses to return to Kansas at the end. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/19 "2002-11-25T15:33:39Z")
**Fenris** – I don’t think the Land of Oz TV thing was part of the Mickey Mouse club, or anything Disney. I seem to recall it as a network special (I saw this as a kid, and I’m going by memory). The sex-change thing at the end took me totally by surprise, and I never saw anything like it again. I was a little gratified to find it at the end of Baum’s book – it re-assured me that I wasn’t mis-remembering. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562/20 "2002-11-25T15:35:21Z")
Damn! Here it is: [http://us.imdb.com/Title?0054015](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0054015) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-resonate-so-powerfully-for-some-gay-men/138562.md?page=2)