# Why did they dig up the Pope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2001, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809 "2001-03-28T08:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/1 "2001-03-28T08:14:55Z")
They exhumed Pope John (23rd)'s body [brief tantalising story here](http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-104625,00.html) since links are often weak (good-bye!), the story is: > [@](#): > > THE Vatican said yesterday that Pope John XXIII’s body, exhumed before his canonisation in the autumn, had remained “uncorrupted” since his death 37 years ago. But Vatican officials did not call the preservation “a miracle”. > They said that although Popes were not embalmed, their bodies were treated with formalin. John XXIII’s body was contained in three airtight coffins of oak, lead and pine in a marble sarcophagus. > > Officials said the Pope looked “almost exactly as he did the day he died”, with his eyes closed but his mouth slightly open in a “characteristic smile”. Yeah sure. I doubt they were likely to say “his face was contorted in an agonising scream”, but anyway… Why? They needed the room, seeing as how current Pope isn’t looking that chipper? Looking back, I realise my tone is probably offensive to devout catholics. Um, yes. Well, don’t let it worry youse all. So,looking forward to being enlightened, Redboss ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/2 "2001-03-28T11:49:00Z")
Ewww! I asked on another post if it is necessary (for Catholicism) that a saint-candidate’s body be “uncorrupted”, or if lack of as much decay as might be expected is just sort of optional but not required evidence of their saintliness. If this is only considered supporting evidence, then how does this investigatory exhumation square with respect for the person in particular and with respect for the dead in gernral? I doubt that I could get away with going down to the local boot hill and digging up Catholics to see if their corpses were saintly to one degree or another. Also, did they make a saint out of this passed pope? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/3 "2001-03-28T13:59:35Z")
Incorruptability is not required for cannonization. Notice that JP2 had already decided to cannonize John XXIII before he was exhumed. ---
**Author:** ![barker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@barker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barker)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/4 "2001-03-28T14:05:07Z")
From _Catholic News Service_ > [@](#): > > VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope John Paul II, recognizing the extent of popular devotion to Blessed John XXIII, has decided his tomb should be in St. Peter’s Basilica rather than in the grotto under the church. The Vatican press office confirmed Jan. 22 that the body of Pope John, who convoked the Second Vatican Council, had been removed from the grotto Jan. 16 after a solemn and formal opening of the tomb and recognition of the body. The body will be placed in the basilica to make it easier for people to visit his tomb, the press office said. A recognition ceremony usually takes place before a person is beatified, but Vatican officials did not want to disturb the tomb during the Holy Year, when so many visitors wanted to pray there, said an official at the basilica. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/5 "2001-03-28T14:31:36Z")
I wanna see a picture!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/6 "2001-03-28T14:49:32Z")
There was a similar thread a few days ago inspired by the same news story. [Incorrupt Saints](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=64892) The thread contained a link to an interesting discussion. [http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/incorrupt.html](http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/incorrupt.html) Could some patient Catholic please enlighten us ignorant Protest-ants, et al, about the importance of “relics”? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/7 "2001-03-28T16:00:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icarus \* > \*\*Could some patient Catholic please enlighten us ignorant Protest-ants, et al, about the importance of “relics”? \*\* There’s the PhD dissertation version, and the Reader’s Digest version. I’ll condense the Reader’s Digest version some more, and provide links for the detailed information (as well as recommend a few of my favorite textbooks on the matter, if I’m able to recall any of the titles after the single malt scotch whiskey from last night. [ul][li]Saints are men and women who led exceptionally holy lives. They are not worshipped; they are not gods; they are “nothing more than friends and servants of God whose holy lives have made them worthy of His special love.” (Quoted from Catholic Encyclopedia.)[/li][li]"[They] are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints" (from the decrees of the Council of Trent). God works through the relics to perform all the miracles you hear about. Curing the lame, healing the sick, letting the blind see and the deaf hear and the mute talk.[/li]There is nothing in Catholic theology to suggest any belief in a magical virtue in the relics, or that the relics themselves contain any curative effect.[/ul]Ok, I’m too hung over to remember any titles, so I’ll point you at the [handy dandy Catholic Encyclopedia entry](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm) and be on my way. I left out the cults of the saints, abuses, recorded miracles, veneration, attitudes towards fakes, yadda, yadda, yadda. ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/8 "2001-03-28T17:00:18Z")
Sort of relating to the topic: It’s the Skeptic’s Dictionary entry on incorruptible bodies: [http://www.skepdic.com/incorrupt.html](http://www.skepdic.com/incorrupt.html) Of course this doesn’t mean every yahoo out there and their kid sister isn’t going to be hailing this a “miracle.” ---
**Author:** ![Man\_from\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Man\_from\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_from_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/9 "2001-03-28T17:40:38Z")
Relics are an important part in the religious process of making money. Anyone familiar with the Rowan Atkinson series Black Adder when he and the boys are looking over their relics for sale? There are such items as those made by Jesus in his days in the carpentry shop: spice racks, crucifixes, etc. Crucifixes! I wonder how many blind sheep would actually fall before a crucifix made by Jesus and, without questioning whatsoever the insane logic behind it, say fifty Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers and six Glory Be’s. I think the point of that scene is to call attention to the fact that too many people just want to believe something without actually asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/10 "2001-03-28T21:31:03Z")
It’s about time they canonized him! Pope John XXIII, we really could use him around today! ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/11 "2001-03-28T23:24:17Z")
Thank you **barker**! That was exactly what I was looking for. The article you cited didn’t use the word “exhumation” at all (well, I would avoid it too if I was digging up old popes) which is why my Google search didn’t bring it up. Google did give me over 300 responses however (to the words _exhumation pope John_), and let me tell you all - there is a hell of a lot of exhumation going on connected with popes! Pio Nono, the nasty rightwing pope also up for canonisation has come up, bishops, journalists, nuns and many others have been ordered up by every pope with the word John in his name - folks, they’re diggin’ 'em up in every corner of the globe!! Looks like a career opportunity here for a farsighted Doper with good connections in Italy. Ah well, vanity of vanities, all is vanity… RIPboss ---
**Author:** ![exchicagoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/0ea827/32.png) [@exchicagoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/exchicagoan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/12 "2001-03-29T07:07:02Z")
Could some patient Catholic please enlighten us ignorant Protest-ants, et al, about the importance of “relics”? \*\* [/QUOTE] Some folks want them for the same reason that other folk pay big bucks to own something previously worn/used by Marilyn or Mickey. Nothing mysterious. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/13 "2001-03-29T07:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Redboss \* > **Pio Nono, the nasty rightwing pope also up for canonisation has come up,** Yes, what an unpleasant person. It’s irritating that we have a metro station named after him up here (Pie-IX). So we have at least two anti-Semites (with Lionel-Groulx), and when they change Ile-Ste-Hélène to Jean-Drapeau, we’ll be rounding it out with a homophobe too. I’m SO happy. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/14 "2001-03-29T13:35:20Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by LNO \* [ul][li]Saints are men and women who led exceptionally holy lives. They are not worshipped; they are not gods; they are “nothing more than friends and servants of God whose holy lives have made them worthy of His special love.” (Quoted from Catholic Encyclopedia.)[/li][li]"[They] are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints" (from the decrees of the Council of Trent). God works through the relics to perform all the miracles you hear about. Curing the lame, healing the sick, letting the blind see and the deaf hear and the mute talk.[/li][li]There is nothing in Catholic theology to suggest any belief in a magical virtue in the relics, or that the relics themselves contain any curative effect.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Well, there is a certain logic to that. Thanks for illuminating. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by exchicagoan \* > > Some folks want them for the same reason that other folk pay big bucks to own something previously worn/used by Marilyn or Mickey. Good point. But hey, I like Marilyn as much as anyone, that doesn’t mean I want her actual head on my mantle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/15 "2001-03-29T20:35:58Z")
Come on, I think a preserved head is pretty freaking cool, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/16 "2001-03-30T00:50:51Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by LNO \* \*\* [ul][li]Saints are men and women who led exceptionally holy lives. They are not worshipped; they are not gods; they are “nothing more than friends and servants of God whose holy lives have made them worthy of His special love.” (Quoted from Catholic Encyclopedia.)[/li][li]"[They] are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints" (from the decrees of the Council of Trent). God works through the relics to perform all the miracles you hear about. Curing the lame, healing the sick, letting the blind see and the deaf hear and the mute talk.[/li][li]There is nothing in Catholic theology to suggest any belief in a magical virtue in the relics, or that the relics themselves contain any curative effect.[/ul][/li] I just reread this and I hope the OP won’t mind a slight hi-jack. Sure, **LNO** written church theology itself is free from magical suggestions. But you can’t deny that generations of priests and nuns, especially the poorly educated ones, have told people under their care a great deal of superstitious, magical nonsense. For example, the saints as an avenue to God. “Pray to Mary to intercede with God”. That is God himself is too busy to see you, but if you can convince Mary, she is his mother after all, and will put in a good word for you. The saints are also supposed by the superstitious to be aware of, and affected by, your daily activities. As a young woman my aunt was told “every time you whistle, Mary blushes!” The very practice of putting up statues and praying in front of them is seen by many as an accomodation of idolatory. Sure, the church teaching is clear that the statues are just there to remind the faithful of the saint, but I doubt that centuries of peasants made that distinction. Kissing the feet of statues, kissing or touching reliquaries, pilgrimaging to remote locations to view St jerome’s thighbone, may all seem like harmless superstition, no worse than the coin-in-the-wishing-well money raiser at the local shopping mall. But many would say these practices were encouraged over many years by front-line religious, and tolerated by those men who wrote the theology. “After all they’re peasants, what does it matter?” And a vast superstitious, mean-spirited, disguised paganism is the result. Saints is nonsense, relics are pointless, and all that stuff gets in the way of an actual understanding of what Jesus said, and any attempt to out that into practice. Thanks OP, RedBoss ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-they-dig-up-the-pope/59809/17 "2001-03-30T00:55:08Z")
“Thou shalt preview each posting, lest thy pride result in dumb mistakes.” sorry gang!