# Why did US planners think Japan had to be invaded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786 "2014-09-18T01:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/41 "2014-09-19T01:14:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The reason is that unlike today, people back then didn’t just \*say \*they won the war and go home - they actually won the war. WWII is an exception to the rule, most wars in modern times were not unconditional, or close to unconditional. Those longing for the “goog old days” need to go back to ancients times when cities were burnt, all the men killed or enslaved, the women raped and enslaved, and children thrown to the dogs > [@TriPolar](#): > > Not that I know of. The situations were different, but all I’ve seen about this indicates ending the war was the overriding concern. Racism as a factor in using Abombs is often speculated, but there is no real evidence of racism in those decisions that I know of either. I really can’t see even engaging in a debate with someone who holds that viewpoint, as the atomic bomb was built to be used against Germany. We might as well negate if we hated Japan because their flag was red and white. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/42 "2014-09-19T01:15:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not that I know of. The situations were different, but all I’ve seen about this indicates ending the war was the overriding concern. Racism as a factor in using Abombs is often speculated, but there is no real evidence of racism in those decisions that I know of either. Some of those guys[ate POWs.](http://www.ww2f.com/topic/30800-japanese-cannibalism-against-allied-other-pows/) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/43 "2014-09-19T01:46:56Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I really can’t see even engaging in a debate with someone who holds that viewpoint, as the atomic bomb was built to be used against Germany. We might as well negate if we hated Japan because their flag was red and white. I’m sorry I don’t understand. I’ve heard people say that we didn’t have to use the bombs on Japan and we did because of racism. But I don’t see the evidence for that, or the sense in it. I think our decisions at the end of the war were made based on rational strategic and political concerns, not racism. Racism, hatred, vengence, and other things may have been on some or many people’s minds, but if it was a motivating factor we would have done much worse things to both Germany and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/44 "2014-09-19T04:10:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m sorry I don’t understand. I’ve heard people say that we didn’t have to use the bombs on Japan and we did because of racism. But I don’t see the evidence for that, or the sense in it. > > I think our decisions at the end of the war were made based on rational strategic and political concerns, not racism. Racism, hatred, vengence, and other things may have been on some or many people’s minds, but if it was a motivating factor we would have done much worse things to both Germany and Japan. Please note that I’m not calling you out on this. I’m saying that people who are so completely ignorant of the situation yet still argue something something completely baseless are not worth the time. I’m not saying that you have those views. It would be DNFTT. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/45 "2014-09-19T04:36:13Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > WWII is an exception to the rule, most wars in modern times were not unconditional, or close to unconditional. Those longing for the “goog old days” need to go back to ancients times when cities were burnt, all the men killed or enslaved, the women raped and enslaved, and children thrown to the dogs > . Obviously we don’t want rape and genocide, but I think people forget why war became more limited in the 20th century after WWII. It wasn’t because we became more moral. It was because we had to keep one eye on the Soviet Union and they had to keep one eye on us. NOw of course we THINK we are more moral because we haven’t been through a big war in 70 years, but people forget about the changing views on war between WW1 and WW2. The British and French didn’t start bombing civilians until the Germans did. Prior to that, during the “Phony War” stage, they were dropping leaflets. Bombing strategic targets was unthinkable because get this, “It’s private property.” I’m sure that if WW3 is conventional it will start in much the same way, with NATO trying to keep it civilized and “modern”, but if the Russians or Chinese or whoever take the gloves off and there’s blood in the streets of NATO countries, we’ll go right back to total warfare in a heartbeat. And once that line is crossed, it’ll be unconditional surrender all over again unless nukes make such a stance impossible. But anyway, I’m digressing from the point I wanted to make. The problem with limited war today, just as it would have been in WW2, is that it can actually cause more and prolonged suffering, plus it tells every tinpot dictator in the world that the worst that can happen to them if they make trouble in the world is a small humiliation that probably doesn’t threaten their hold on power in the slightest and might even increase their prestige if they are in an irrational enough part of the world. Containment and limited warfare are policies tailored to a certain geopolitical reality that existed for a short period, the COld War. The Cold war is over and we’ve returned to a world that looks a lot more like the world that existed in the 1920s and 1930s, complete with an angry, defeated former power that doesn’t really believe it lost and is trying to get back some territory. The next war will be a lot more like the war against Japan. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/46 "2014-09-19T12:00:23Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > **NiceGuyJack** ’s post really nails it but I’ll ad that this was a nation that went from feudalism to sinking the Russian fleet in forty years and on to Peal Harbor in less than seventy five. > > _And they weren’t WHITE._ It wasn’t enough to contain them, they needed to be eradicated. This is Horseshit. The allies were every bit as determined that Germany’s surrender would be unconditional, and in fact they prioritized it over Japan, (including the US, despite PH) and they were every bit as willing to do massively destructive bombing raids (see Dresden). And then, of course, they were so determined to “eradicate” the Japanese, the US gave billions towards its reconstruction. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/47 "2014-09-19T12:39:45Z")
Has anyone pointed out yet that the bomb was [planned to use](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szil%C3%A1rd_letter) against the Germans? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/48 "2014-09-19T12:45:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Has anyone pointed out yet that the bomb was [planned to use](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szil%C3%A1rd_letter) against the Germans? Yup, in Post #41 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/49 "2014-09-19T12:49:08Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Please note that I’m not calling you out on this. I’m saying that people who are so completely ignorant of the situation yet still argue something something completely baseless are not worth the time. I’m not saying that you have those views. > > It would be DNFTT. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you have some problem with my argument you could try making an argument for whatever your point of view is. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/50 "2014-09-19T13:15:40Z")
I don’t think he has a problem with your argument; I think he’s using your post as a springboard to complain about a point of view that bothers him. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/51 "2014-09-19T14:50:01Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I don’t think he has a problem with your argument; I think he’s using your post as a springboard to complain about a point of view that bothers him. This exactly. If someone were to strongly argue that it was racism which was the reason for bombing Japan, they are talking out of their ass. **TriPolar** has not made that argument, but reports that there are people who do. I actually agree with his argument on this. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/52 "2014-09-20T04:23:04Z")
If racism was not involved: Why lock up Japanese nationals but not German or Italian nationals? We seized at least some German owned assets (Dusenberg at least), but the people were not sent of to concentration camps, as were the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/53 "2014-09-20T04:26:56Z")
No one is claiming that there was no anti-Japanese racism in WWII. That’s an absurd straw-man. There certainly was. Look at war-era propaganda. What’s actually being denied is that racism was involved in the decision to end the war conclusively, or in dropping nuclear weapons. Since the bombs were set to be dropped on Germany, if they hadn’t been defeated already, the racism charge is vacuous. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/54 "2014-09-20T12:57:34Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > If racism was not involved: > > Why lock up Japanese nationals but not German or Italian nationals? > > We seized at least some German owned assets (Dusenberg at least), but the people were not sent of to concentration camps, as were the Japanese. No Americans of German or Italian descent [helped the enemy](http://www.historynet.com/the-niihau-incident.htm) on American soil. At last none that were known about. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/55 "2014-09-20T15:36:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No Americans of German or Italian descent [helped the enemy](http://www.historynet.com/the-niihau-incident.htm) on American soil. At last none that were known about. 🙂 No. No. No. This was not because of the Niihau Incident, [it was pure racism](http://www.pbs.org/thewar/at_home_civil_rights_japanese_american.htm). Don’t whitewash it. > [@](#): > > At first, plans had been drawn up in Washington for the wholesale internment of all 158,000 people of Japanese descent living in Hawaii,too – nearly 40 percent of the total population of the islands. But wealthy landowners in Hawaii opposed the plan; they depended on Japanese field workers to tend their sugar and pineapple plantations. And the presence of a massive American military force on the islands made the danger of an internal threat seem less and less plausible. In the end, Japanese Americans in Hawaii would be allowed to go about their lives more or less as they always had. > > But their counterparts on the West Coast would find themselves the subject of an anti-Japanese frenzy that seemed immune to reason. While they represented a tiny portion of the population, Japanese Americans on the West Coast had long been special targets of white hostility. Laws and customs shut out Japanese Americans from full participation in economic and civic life for decades. Japanese immigrants – known as Issei – could not own land, eat in white restaurants, or become naturalized citizens. But the American-born descendants of Japanese immigrants – called Nisei – were citizens by birthright, and many had become successful in business and farming. Pearl Harbor gave whites a chance to renew their hostility toward their Japanese neighbors – it also offered white growers and business interests an opportunity to agitate anew for the elimination of unwanted competitors. The head of the California Grower-Shipper Vegetable Association told the Saturday Evening Post: > > “If all of the Japs were removed tomorrow, we’d never miss them… because the white farmers can take over and produce everything the Jap grows. And we don’t want them back when the war ends, either.” > > Within days of Pearl Harbor, FBI director J. Edgar Hoover assured the U.S. Attorney General that “practically all” suspected individuals were already in custody, and there was no need for mass evacuations of Japanese for security reasons. But Lt. Gen. John L. DeWitt, head of the Western Defense Command, pushed for wholesale Japanese evacuation. “The Japanese race is an enemy race,” DeWitt wrote, “and while many second and third generation Japanese born on United States soil, possessed of United States citizenship, have become ‘Americanized,’ the racial strains are undiluted.” My argument is that the racism did not play a part in the planning for the end of the war, nor had anything to do with the decision to firebomb the cities or drop the two atomic bombs. It looks like the OP is long gone, but one answer to why it was necessary to force Japan to surrender sooner than later was the number of Allied civilian deaths. If you include deaths from famine and disease which could have been prevented had the Japanese not been occupying their counties, something like 100,000 Allied civilians (the majority of which were Chinese) were dying _weekly_. Had the bombs not been available, the Soviets not entered the war and the worst case of martial law in Japan, another 5 to 10 million people would likely have died. It was not a pretty war, and the Allies had to do many ugly things in order to prevent even uglier atrocities. I had relatives who died fighting in the Pacific. I was also married to a Japanese, and both of my ex-parents-in-law survived the firebombings of Tokyo. My ex-MIL’ family went one way in their escape and their neighbors went another. The neighbors didn’t survive. As the oldest son, my ex-FIL threw the yet unexploded napalm bomb out of their makeshift shelter in their backyard. It blew up minutes later in the street. I had a great friend who survived the bomb at Nagasaki. (I lived less than a mile from the epicenter.) The father of one girlfriend was a Zero pilot who did make it through the war. After first spending time there in 1981, I lived in Japan for a total of more than 25 years, and watched TV programs giving the Japanese side to the events as well as studying from the American side. Given the situation on August 6th, 1945, and especially looking at how things played out after, as horrible as it was, it was a necessary evil, a few shared by many Japanese leaders and scholars. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/56 "2014-09-20T19:30:19Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It looks like the OP is long gone I’m still here. Thanks for your long, detailed feedback. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Given the situation on August 6th, 1945, and especially looking at how things played out after, as horrible as it was, it was a necessary evil, a few shared by many Japanese leaders and scholars. My view that may seem bizarre, but I think the A-bombings were 100% justified while the Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo was a sadistic atrocity and unjustified. Even though both killed tens of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/57 "2014-09-20T20:05:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > My view that may seem bizarre, but I think the A-bombings were 100% justified while the Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo was a sadistic atrocity and unjustified. Even though both killed tens of thousands. I am curious, why? How do you feel about Dresden? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/58 "2014-09-20T20:09:18Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > If racism was not involved: > > Why lock up Japanese nationals but not German or Italian nationals? > > We seized at least some German owned assets (Dusenberg at least), but the people were not sent of to concentration camps, as were the Japanese. Actually there were plenty of German and Italian nationals locked up and sent to concentration camps on very flimsy grounds, though obviously not to the extent that Japanese Americans were. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/59 "2014-09-20T20:20:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually there were plenty of German and Italian nationals locked up and sent to concentration camps on very flimsy grounds, though obviously not to the extent that Japanese Americans were. Indeed? We had German POW camps and Japanese Internment camps in Arkansas, but I never heard of camps for Germans or Italians. Were German or Italian nationals imprisoned in existing Federal prisons? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786/60 "2014-09-20T21:54:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Indeed? We had German POW camps and Japanese Internment camps in Arkansas, but I never heard of camps for Germans or Italians. Were German or Italian nationals imprisoned in existing Federal prisons? [German-American.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans#World_War_II) Mostly not U.S. citizens. [Italian-Americans.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans) Apparently this one is a bit of a misnomer, as (according to the article) none of those interned were U.S. citizens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-us-planners-think-japan-had-to-be-invaded/698786.md?page=4)