# Why didn’t Pence do what Trump wanted vis a vis counting the electoral votes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816 "2023-02-15T10:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/41 "2023-02-16T19:36:37Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > If his legal advice was that the maneuver was probably legal, I think he still wouldn’t have done it. If that was so then why bother getting the legal advice at all? Why not just do your job in the conventional manner that everyone expects you to do? Based on Quayle’s testimony it sounded like he was really trying to see if there wasn’t possibly some loophole that would let him do what Trump wanted. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/42 "2023-02-16T19:41:35Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Based on Quayle’s testimony it sounded like he was really trying to see if there wasn’t possibly some loophole that would let him do what Trump wanted. There was, but Quayle spelled it loophol. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/43 "2023-02-16T19:41:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Based on Quayle’s testimony it sounded like he was really trying to see if there wasn’t possibly some loophole that would let him do what Trump wanted. Either that or cover to protect the expected blow back from the “Hang Mike Pence” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/44 "2023-02-16T19:53:26Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If that was so then why bother getting the legal advice at all? To ensure he could be considered on the right side of history for his “legacy” and his prospects. Why put on your CV indelibly that you are the guy who willingly overturned convention for expediency if you had aspirations to run for that office? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/45 "2023-02-16T20:24:58Z")
I think it was a purely legalistic decision. Pence reminds me of someone I used to know. He was fanatical about the Constitution, irrespective of morals. If someone had managed to pass an amendment requiring people to strangle a kitten on alternate Tuesdays, he would have done so without hesitation. Then he would have stopped when it was repealed. Had there been any way at all for Pence to legally interfere with the election, he would have done so. He was simply assured that this wasn’t the case, so he dropped it. I doubt he gave a thought to whether it was a “bad” thing to do or not. In this instance, we can be glad for Pence’s dedication the letter of the law. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking his actions were influenced by any other kind of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/46 "2023-02-16T21:15:56Z")
His excuses as to why he is going to fight Jack Smith’s subpoena make me think he doesn’t give a crap about the Constitution. It’s a handy tool to twist to his ends. The same as people like him use the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/47 "2023-02-16T23:49:28Z")
Agree. OP here. After reading the posts, I can see that I should have added a fourth choice, _to wit_: 1. He thought it wasn’t in his best interest. That’s my pick now. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/48 "2023-02-17T00:26:26Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Which is why, reluctant as we may be to do so, we have to credit Dan Quayle as one of the saviors of American democracy. And Sid Meyer put him as the dead last leader you get if your score was absolutely terrible. Shows you what HE knew! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/49 "2023-02-17T01:00:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > > [@penultima\_thule](#): > > > > If his legal advice was that the maneuver was probably legal, I think he still wouldn’t have done it. > > If that was so then why bother getting the legal advice at all? Maybe to try to cover his ass with the Trumpists? He might even have thought at the time that it would cover his ass with Trump himself. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/50 "2023-02-17T02:07:33Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > His excuses as to why he is going to fight Jack Smith’s subpoena make me think he doesn’t give a crap about the Constitution. It’s a handy tool to twist to his ends. The same as people like him use the bible. Indeed. The Speech and Debate Clause he is trying to invoke reads: > The _Senators and Representatives_ shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, _except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace_, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for _any Speech or Debate in either House_, they shall not be questioned in any other Place. Given the obvious facts that 1)Pence is and was neither a Senator nor a Representative, 2)the events of January 6 cover not one, not two, but all three of the stated exceptions, and 3)the discussions to be investigated did not take place in either House, no one with an iota of respect for the Constitution would advance such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2023, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/51 "2023-04-26T13:04:03Z")
Remember when trump was speaking at the 1/6 rally, and told the crowd at one point something like: “…of course, if he doesn’t do the right thing we won’t like him quite as much.” I’ve only ever heard soundbites from the speech, so my question is: before the above statement, to what extent did he explain to the crowd just what exactly it was he wanted Pence to do? Did they understand how he was supposed to fuck up the counting procedure? I’m sure the transcript of the speech is out there somewhere but I don’t think I could bring myself to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/52 "2023-04-26T14:07:08Z")
Yes, he explicitly said what he wanted Pence to do. It’s in this part of the speech (referring to John Eastman’s plan): > [@](#): > > And he looked at Mike Pence, and I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so. > > Because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do, all this is, this is from the number one, or certainly one of the top, Constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it. We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our Constitution, and protect our constitution. > > States want to revote. The states got defrauded, They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people. > > And I actually, I just spoke to Mike. I said: “Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage.” And then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen. Then (lying that he would walk down with them), > [@](#): > > And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn’t, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our Constitution. > > Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down. > > Anyone you want, but I think right here, we’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. And then (reiterating he wants Pence to reject some state’s certifications): > [@](#): > > They want to recertify. But the only way that can happen is if Mike Pence agrees to send it back. Mike Pence has to agree to send it back. And (gratuitous insult): > [@](#): > > So I hope Mike has the courage to do what he has to do. And I hope he doesn’t listen to the RINOs and the stupid people that he’s listening to. And this how he wrapped it up (explicit call for action, if not directly violence): > [@](#): > > And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore. > > Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country. > > And I say this despite all that’s happened. The best is yet to come. > > So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we’re going to the Capitol, and we’re going to try and give. > > The Democrats are hopeless, they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don’t need any of our help. We’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. > > So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. You can read the whole unlined craziness here: [Transcript of Trump's speech at rally before US Capitol riot | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-capitol-siege-media-e79eb5164613d6718e9f4502eb471f27) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/53 "2023-04-28T12:52:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > To the degree the nobody-but-Trump crazies are a spent force in R politics, Pence has a decent chance at saying what much of the rest of the Rs want to hear: “We all went temporarily nuts in 2016-2020, **but we’re better now.** ” Su-u-ure you are. Forget it, I remember when [Wilford Brimley](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(1982_film)) said the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/54 "2023-04-28T12:58:51Z")
[So, Pence was testifying yesterday.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65423301) Apparently he pretty much confirmed everything he’d said in his book about his interactions with Trump. So, as far as we’ll ever be able to tell, the real reason Pence didn’t do what Trump wanted is that Pence honestly believed that it was illegal. Nothing Trump or any of his minions said was convincing to Pence. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/55 "2023-04-28T13:02:50Z")
Unintentional post. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/56 "2023-04-28T13:52:06Z")
I wonder if they would be allowed to question Quayle remotely? It would be interesting, but not so important (afaict) as to subpoena him. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/57 "2023-04-28T14:11:32Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > So, as far as we’ll ever be able to tell, the real reason Pence didn’t do what Trump wanted is that Pence honestly believed that it was illegal. Nothing Trump or any of his minions said was convincing to Pence. So, my question for lawyer types is - is it illegal to ask someone to commit an illegal act that you believe is legal (or at least of dubious legality)? What if that person tells you it is illegal? What if you then ask them again? Clearly instigating a mob to “influence” that person to do the deed they already told you they felt was illegal should be illegal, but I’m wondering if the direct act of even asking Pence to violate the Electoral Count Act could be illegal in and of itself. Or is there some sort of “reasonable person might believe it was legal” defense? ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/58 "2023-04-29T16:44:37Z")
I dunno, I think the notion that Pence would have done it if he’d thought he could get away with it is a little dumb. We saw plenty of Republicans who sincerely criticized the attempts to overthrow the election, and it included plenty of them who have been total dicks in many other contexts. They’re totally evil but I think it’s a mistake to assume they do it just for the sake of doing it. They really think they’re acting on principle and that’s what makes them fascists. It seems likely to me that Pence was fine with a lot of other stuff Trump had done but really considered the electoral vote scheme to be beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/59 "2023-04-29T17:15:20Z")
So, what you’re asking is if someone tries to coerce someone else into comitting a crime, is the first person comitting a crime, even if they don’t think it’s a crime? IANAL, but I would think that is a crime. Of course, TFG will claim one of his worthless and expendable lawyers told him it was OK, so he can throw that person under the bus and weasle out of any potential legal peril. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/60 "2023-04-29T17:22:07Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > It seems likely to me that Pence was fine with a lot of other stuff Trump had done but really considered the electoral vote scheme to be beyond the pale. Well, after he consulted a bunch of people looking for ‘guidance’ on whether there is some legal way he could refuse to certify the EC votes as Trump directed. You know, instead of just saying, “No, I’ll follow my oath to ‘preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States’ and complete this process according to procedure and democratic norms.” Of course, as you point out, Pence was completely fine with a bunch of other things that Trump did and said that were seemingly at odds with his stated Christian morality, general ethics, and good sense, so all indications are that Pence is a compliant little toe-rag up to the point that he was essentially being set up as a fall guy, and for once had enough sense to decline. When James Danforth Quayle is lecturing you about your civil and ethical responsibility, the conclusion should have been obvious before you picked up the phone and asked the question. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816.md?page=4)