# Why didn’t Pence do what Trump wanted vis a vis counting the electoral votes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816 "2023-02-15T10:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/61 "2023-04-29T18:33:07Z")
If Pence thought it would have worked, he would have jumped at the chance, but he, like a lot of Republican leaders, thought that openly rejecting democracy would be a bridge too far for the Republican base. You can also see this in McCarthy and McConnell’s immediate reaction to the events of 1/6. It wasn’t until events unfolded in the week after 1/6 that it was clear that shitting on the Constitution was broadly popular among the base. That’s when all these spineless fucks changed their tune. Pence didn’t do what Trump wanted because it was straightforwardly illegal and he didn’t want to go to jail. It wasn’t until after 1/6 that it was clear that lawlessness and corruption had so thoroughly taken over the Republican electorate that overthrowing democracy would have worked and would have had no negative consequences. I’m sure if he had it to do over again, he would do things differently. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/62 "2023-04-29T19:59:41Z")
A combination of 1 and 2 I think it’s mostly that he thought it was illegal and therefore wrong, If Mike Pence were a D & D character he’d be Lawful Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/63 "2023-04-29T21:06:28Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > So, what you’re asking is if someone tries to coerce someone else into comitting a crime, is the first person comitting a crime, even if they don’t think it’s a crime? I seem to recall that a basic principle in the legal system is, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” Which is the main reason you never, ever, talk to the cops without a lawyer present. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/64 "2023-04-29T21:34:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t know, I suspect Pence is Lawful Evil. (He thinks, of course, that he’s Lawful Good.) And I suspect he wants a theocracy because that’s the Law he wants everybody to follow. It looks like my Lawful Evil comment was ninja-ed. Sorry–didn’t see it at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/65 "2023-04-30T02:14:04Z")
When a significant percentage of your party are out for your blood, it’s not a bad idea to have a backup story to cover your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/66 "2023-04-30T03:03:11Z")
You would think that having “a significant percentage of your party…out for blood” would cause him to re-evaluate this alliances but Pence is just a gutless little worm who was looking for someone to reassure him in following His Master’s Babble, and when he couldn’t get that out of even the most gormless of counsel, he folded like a cheap umbrella. For once, his indecisive cowardice was a benefit. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/67 "2023-04-30T13:06:14Z")
Trump’s “reasoning” usually gets him places with his subordinates (i.e., everyone from his perspective): “You perform this blatantly illegal act that benefits me, and I’ll say it’s legal, and since I’m going to be/remain POTUS as a result, no one can contradict me.” The danger here to the lowly subordinate, of course, is maybe he WON’T remain President, and then the lowly subordinate will be the one prosecuted, while Trump claims “I didn’t know anything, I never spoke to Pence, I don’t know who Pence is” etc. See the hundreds and thousands of subordinates, i.e. J6 insurrectionists, now serving prison time for heeding Trump’s advice. Pence decided not to. Now he’s trying to salvage a political career in which his own party and the other party vie for the claim of who despises him more. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/68 "2023-04-30T14:17:43Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > The danger here to the lowly subordinate, of course, is maybe he WON’T remain President, and then the lowly subordinate will be the one prosecuted, while Trump claims “I didn’t know anything, I never spoke to Pence, I don’t know who Pence is” etc. And yet, he somehow seems to attract a rotating coterie of supplicants, sycophants, and enablers who are willing to protect and rationalize excuses for him, often at peril of their own careers, reputations, and freedom. Of all things Trump, this ability to engender asymmetrical blind loyalty is what I understand the least; he’s not a charismatic speaker, he’s not clever or known for rewarding associates, his utter ineptitude is a constant frustration to everyone in his orbit. Is it pheromones? Do people believe that some of his ‘magic’ will rub off on them? Do they really think that selling steaks through _The Sharper Image_ was a genius business plan? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/69 "2023-04-30T15:30:39Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Is it pheromones? It’s blackmail, I’d guess. Blackmail via fear, coupled with ignorance. He sold Sharper Image steaks to dupes too dumb to realize that Sharper Image wasn’t a sign of quality, it was a sign of schlock. Anyone in higher education could see a glance that Trump University was a compleat scam, top to bottom, not an ounce of integrity nor educational value, but he was marketing to dupes clueless to rudimentary indications of quality in educational standards. He depended on consumers not knowing the difference between sizzle and steak. But for cases like Pence, and Giuliani, and Graham, he probably had some nasty dirt on them, backed by their understanding that he really would broadcast it, and that some of it would stick, however insubstantial it actually was. And with those three, I don’t doubt that there was some substance that they would find embarrassing, if not humiliating. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/70 "2023-04-30T15:45:30Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@slicedalone](#): > > > > The danger here to the lowly subordinate, of course, is maybe he WON’T remain President, and then the lowly subordinate will be the one prosecuted, while Trump claims “I didn’t know anything, I never spoke to Pence, I don’t know who Pence is” etc. > > And yet, he somehow seems to attract a rotating coterie of supplicants, sycophants, and enablers who are willing to protect and rationalize excuses for him, often at peril of their own careers, reputations, and freedom. Of all things Trump, this ability to engender asymmetrical blind loyalty is what I understand the least; he’s not a charismatic speaker, he’s not clever or known for rewarding associates, his utter ineptitude is a constant frustration to everyone in his orbit. Is it pheromones? Do people believe that some of his ‘magic’ will rub off on them? Do they really think that selling steaks through _The Sharper Image_ was a genius business plan? > > Stranger I think a lot of these people just way overestimate their abilities to thrive in an environment like that. They think, foolishly, that they’re the ones who are going to be able to rein him in, that they’re the ones who’ve somehow figured out the secret sauce to not only surviving in his orbit, but actually being able to exercise some control over the monster. And if nothing else, they can always score a lucrative book deal after they inevitably flame out, or, if they don’t piss off the Orange One too badly, perhaps a commentator gig on Fox News or some other conservative media outlet. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/71 "2023-04-30T15:47:40Z")
ETA: Simulpost w @joebuck20 with whom I (obviously) agree. Everybody who gets close to the inner circle seems to think they can surf the tidal wave and not be thrown. Unlike all those other idiots who got into Trump’s inner circle and did get a) covered in shit, and b) thrown under the bus. It’s a sort of Dunning-Kreuger optimism: “How hard can it be to manipulate a narcissist like Trump? I only need a couple of small victories he’ll never even notice and then I’m set for life. I’ve been working with and for power-hungry egotistical assholes my whole career. I can do this. Heck, I’m one of them myself.” All rational evidence points to the fact that Trump really is in a class by himself in just how far out there he is on the psychopath / narcissist limb. Nothing, and I mean nothing, that anybody has already done can adequately prepare them for hooking up with full-frontal Trump. They’re bound to misunderestimate what they’re up against and duly get hammered. Or if they’re especially clever they’ll bail early enough before they get noticed enough to be fully hammered. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/72 "2023-04-30T15:53:56Z")
Excellent answers above; it boils down to “The leopard won’t eat MY face!” While liberally rubbing bacon all over their forehead. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/73 "2023-04-30T15:57:31Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > But for cases like Pence, and Giuliani, and Graham, he probably had some nasty dirt on them, backed by their understanding that he really would broadcast it, and that some of it would stick, however insubstantial it actually was. I don’t think Pence is interesting enough to have blackmail material. I think he was just an ambitious remora all the way who still thinks he can ride the wave of sewage back to relevance. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/74 "2023-04-30T15:59:43Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > I think a lot of these people just way overestimate their abilities to thrive in an environment like that […]that they’re the ones who’ve somehow figured out the secret sauce[…] > > And if nothing else, they can always score a lucrative book deal after they inevitably flame out, or, if they don’t piss off the Orange One too badly, perhaps a commentator gig on Fox News or some other conservative media outlet. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’ve been working with and for power-hungry egotistical assholes my whole career. I can do this. Heck, I’m one of them myself.” Right – plus some of them just want to get a couple of good hits back at the other side. Especially on point is LSL’s reflection: and it’s not just these people in the inner circle but the base supporters who have fully accepted that the “the meek will inherit the Earth AFTER the assholes are done with it” is just The Way Things Are, “so I might as well hang on to the biggest one”. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I don’t think Pence is interesting enough to have blackmail material. I think he was just an ambitious remora all the way who still thinks he can ride the wave of sewage back to relevance. Pence finds himself in a pickle. The Trumpetistas despise him for deciding in the end to do the right thing. The other side, represented by many here, despise him for even having to decide in the first place. Neither of which side intends to _ever forgive_ him for it, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/75 "2023-04-30T16:03:59Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I don’t think Pence is interesting enough to have blackmail material. You’re probably right, although his standards of “embarrassing” would be lower than Graham’s or Giuliani’s. Probably a pic of him standing too close to a female aide would get Pence in hot water with Mother. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/76 "2023-04-30T16:35:49Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > And if nothing else, they can always score a lucrative book deal after they inevitably flame out, or, if they don’t piss off the Orange One too badly, perhaps a commentator gig on Fox News or some other conservative media outlet. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/AiyZ92_JZxA/maxresdefault.jpg "Morning Joe Michael Wolff Cold Open - SNL") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiyZ92_JZxA&t=115s) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/77 "2023-04-30T19:43:26Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > The danger here to the lowly subordinate, of course, is maybe he WON’T remain President, and then the lowly subordinate will be the one prosecuted, while Trump claims “I didn’t know anything, I never spoke to Pence, I don’t know who Pence is” etc. The other danger to the lowly subordinate is that Trump will take against them for some other reason, including pure whim, and do them major financial and/or reputational damage. Why so many apparently willing subordinates and would-be subordinates don’t seem to see this is a mystery to me. The man is notoriously untrustworthy. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And yet, he somehow seems to attract a rotating coterie of supplicants, sycophants, and enablers who are willing to protect and rationalize excuses for him, often at peril of their own careers, reputations, and freedom. Of all things Trump, this ability to engender asymmetrical blind loyalty is what I understand the least; he’s not a charismatic speaker, he’s not clever or known for rewarding associates, his utter ineptitude is a constant frustration to everyone in his orbit. Is it pheromones? Do people believe that some of his ‘magic’ will rub off on them? Damned if I know. But apparently he is considered a charismatic speaker by a lot of people. > [@joebuck20](#): > > I think a lot of these people just way overestimate their abilities to thrive in an environment like that. That may be it. There do seem to be some people who are just attracted to power, however negatively expressed, and seem to think that if they can just get close enough to the power they’ll be able to exert it while being immune to its negative effects. The idea that the closer you get to the fire the more likely you are to get burned doesn’t seem to sink through. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/78 "2023-04-30T20:24:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Damned if I know. But apparently he is considered a charismatic speaker by a lot of people. > I’m going to F\*\*\* up the people you hate! Really, _Really_ F\*\*\* them up!!! seems to be plenty charismatic for the kinds of people who’ll buy and wear a red baseball cap. Most countries have far more of those folks hiding under rocks than it at first appears. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/79 "2023-05-01T12:01:35Z")
It’s very, very hard for a person to admit that they got conned. You (the general you) want to believe that you’re too intelligent to be fooled. Admitting that to yourself and others is just a bridge too far. Especially when, if you look close enough, you would see that you where conned buy a complete moron selling nothing of value. That’s hard to face for anyone. So they double down. Sort of like someone with a gambling addiction. And there are plenty that are just complete racist/bigoted morons themselves as well. They still believe they were not conned and it is somehow someone else fault. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816/80 "2023-05-01T12:49:46Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s a sort of Dunning-Kreuger optimism: “How hard can it be to manipulate a narcissist like Trump? I only need a couple of small victories he’ll never even notice and then I’m set for life. I’ve been working with and for power-hungry egotistical assholes my whole career. I can do this. Heck, I’m one of them myself.” I wonder how much of it is, Trump is “The Man Too Stupid To Be Conned”. When you’re trying to manipulate someone, you have to assume they’re at least intelligent enough to come to the conclusions you want them to, based on your manipulating statements. “If I tell him China and North Korea are laughing at him, he’ll have to apply the sanctions…” “North Korea is laughing at me? Shit, I’d better write them a love letter!” “_Waht?!?_” We saw this with reports of his Presidential Daily Briefings. They were continually dumbed down in a process to try to get him to at least understand basics like “Putin = Bad”, but he still just kept ignoring them. He’s too stupid and incurious to be manipulated, so you just watch as he randomly blunders from one idea to the next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didn-t-pence-do-what-trump-wanted-vis-a-vis-counting-the-electoral-votes/979816.md?page=5)