# Why didn't any of you bastards tell me how wonderful DOCTOR WHO is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 15, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178 "2011-07-15T21:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/61 "2011-07-19T05:27:13Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > **City of Death** is charming, funny and very, very clever. It was written by Douglas Adams. **Genesis** also features Tom Baker and is one of the show’s most well-known stories. And with Romana II at her most fetching! Damn, a weak chin can really work. Its why I hate Richard Dawkins. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/62 "2011-07-19T05:57:45Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > She was reduced back to what she had been before, all her growth and courage and perspective, all gone. Why bother with Donna’s arc other than, duh,why? Oh, right, Rose. This is precisely the first thing always mentioned by the Rose haters when someone says they like Rose. [spoiler]The love story (which they say shouldn’t exist at all due the pedophilic implications of a 900+ year old man with someone barely an adult) was finally gone, and they had to bring it back to save . Yet again we had to see the Doctor pining for a human, thinking she was the best thing in the entire world, when he’d finally seemed to move on, rather than constantly talk about her like he did with Martha. One of the reasons why people say they love Amy is that she has Rory, and the Doctor isn’t trying to get in the way. And Eleven completely doesn’t give a shit about Rose. It took him 2 regenerations and a younger body, but he’s finally grown back up.[/spoiler] Still, I must admit that, while I thought Donna was the worst companion (as I just wanted to slap her most of the time) even I felt bad for what they did to her. I keep hoping she’s got a copy still in the Library. [spoiler]Yes, killing Donna off would have been much better. Then her sacrifice could mean something. Instead they hit a giant reset button. Heck, if she’d known what was going to happen, and chose for it to happen, it would work. Or if she was actually better off before meeting the Doctor, so it was it actually a good ending, with a bonus sacrifice for the Doctor. But, no. Donna gets saved by Rose in an alternate reality, and then, when she actually saves people in her own right, gets a fate worse than death–the normal existence that was essentially killing her. All because RTD had to resolve yet another season by creating a super-powerful being. In fact, Moffat hasn’t done too well on that either, as what was Amy but yet another cosmic power, recreating the universe from her own mind. But at least he had been setting that up since the beginning, instead of using it to write himself out of a corner.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/63 "2011-07-19T05:59:16Z")
A separate post because it’s not part of the hijack: > [@Alessan](#): > > Yes, in a Season 4 double episode. In fact, if you haven’t seen that episode, you missed out on a lot when she came back. It’s probably the only part with true continuity from the previous series. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/64 "2011-07-19T06:22:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, killing Donna off would have been much better. Then her sacrifice could mean something. Instead they hit a giant reset button. Heck, if she’d known what was going to happen, and chose for it to happen, it would work. Or if she was actually better off before meeting the Doctor, so it was it actually a good ending, with a bonus sacrifice for the Doctor. [spoiler]How does the reset make what happened to her less meaningful than just killing her? I agree, it would have been more poignant if she had known what was going to happen to her, and chosen to do it anyway, but that applies just as fully to her dying as it does to her forgetting everything. (Not to mention that she’d already done just that in “Left Turn,” so it’d be a bit redundant.) And if she’d been better off before she met the Doctor, not only does it make what happened to her not a tragedy, it rather undermines the entire mythos of the Doctor himself as an agent for positive change, doesn’t it?[/spoiler] > [@](#): > > But, no. Donna gets saved by Rose in an alternate reality, and then, when she actually saves people in her own right, gets a fate worse than death–the normal existence that was essentially killing her. All because RTD had to resolve yet another season by creating a super-powerful being. I don’t think the idea that her previous existence was killing her is supportable. She was just living an average, unexamined middle class existence. It’s not nearly as interesting or enlightening as cruising around the universe with a Time Lord, but it’s hardly “a fate worse than death.” > [@](#): > > In fact, Moffat hasn’t done too well on that either, as what was Amy but yet another cosmic power, recreating the universe from her own mind. But at least he had been setting that up since the beginning, instead of using it to write himself out of a corner. Donna’s eventual fate was no less heavily foreshadowed than what happened to Amy and her Doctor, starting (at the very latest) with the third episode of the season, “Planet of the Ood.” Apologies to **Skald** and other new viewers for the lengthy nested spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/65 "2011-07-19T13:27:08Z")
Rather than add to the spoiler boxes let me just add a +1 to everything Miller said and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/66 "2011-07-19T13:54:59Z")
I just came in to add that yes, Doctor Who is wonderful. It felt disloyal to not say something. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/67 "2011-07-19T13:56:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [spoiler]If she had just died, it’d be just the same situation, wouldn’t it? All her growth and courage and perspective, all gone. Does that mean that any story that ends with the death of a protagonist is pointless? I certainly don’t think so. She saved the entire universe, just for starters. She changed the fundamental way her mother and grandfather view her, even if she can’t understand the reason for the change in their attitudes. And, of course, there’s the catastrophic effect her fate had on the Doctor himself. And, unlike simply dying, her reset allows for the possibility that she can experience that growth again, even if it’s in an entirely mundane, non-Doctor related context. > > [/spoiler] This is actually one of the more comforting and helpful things I have read. I was another who was completely heartbroken and pissed off with the things you mention in this spoiler, but I think you have the right idea, and it helps a lot. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/68 "2011-07-19T21:41:13Z")
And I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Donna. Or should I have spoilered that? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/69 "2011-07-19T22:00:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Donna. > > Or should I have spoilered that? 😉 I concur. A lot of the above [del]complaining[/del] commenting about how badly her ending was done seems wrong-headed to me. Someone [put on a bus](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PutOnABus) that obviously and overtly is just begging to be [brought back](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBusCameBack). ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/70 "2011-07-19T22:41:19Z")
I don’t know. Moffat has seemingly put an embargo on all thing RTD. The only thing I can think of in the newest seasons from the Davies-era are River (who’s from a Moffat episode) and the old Daleks (who were then replaced). Oh, and one Ood. The Eleventh Doctor barely mentions any of the stuff he used to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/71 "2011-07-20T00:06:29Z")
This thread is as good as any, so I just want to make a prediction while it’s fresh in my head: Daniel Radcliffe will be the Twelfth Doctor. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/72 "2011-07-20T04:31:26Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > For the new viewer I’d go with **City of Death** or **Genesis of the Daleks**. They’re both classics of the old show and feature Tom Baker as the Fourth Doctor, the most recognizable of them all. **City of Death** is charming, funny and very, very clever. It was written by Douglas Adams. An alien race called the “Jagaroth?” Yes, Doug was here. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/73 "2011-07-20T04:39:10Z")
Rasslon at a party, introducing his wife: Jagaroth, my wife. Jagaroth: Jag her off yourself. She’s YOUR wife. \ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/74 "2011-07-20T04:49:59Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > This thread is as good as any, so I just want to make a prediction while it’s fresh in my head: > > Daniel Radcliffe will be the Twelfth Doctor. Not Radcliffe - Rupert Grint. After all, he wanted to be ginger. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/75 "2011-07-20T04:54:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Not Radcliffe - Rupert Grint. After all, he wanted to be ginger. This. I’ll tell my daughters and they will be amazed by my prescience. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/76 "2011-07-20T08:03:32Z")
Can I hijack this thread a little bit? I’ve always wanted to watch Doctor Who as I’ve heard pretty great things, but I have no idea where to start. Am I crazy or has this show been running for like forty years? So for someone completely new, with absolutely no prior knowledge of the story or anything, where do I begin? And on what platform? (Netflix discs, Netflix streaming, etc.) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/77 "2011-07-20T08:56:18Z")
Start with the nuWho reboot with Ecclestone in 2005, the first episode is called Rose. You can probably hire the DVDs through Netflix one series at a time. If you get through the whole of nuWho and like it, _then_ you can decide whether you want to bother sampling the older Who. As you say, there’s 40 years of it, and it’s of variable quality, so you might not want to. Still, it’s been a staple of British sci fi viewing for a long time, so don’t think I’m rubbishing it. But the new stuff is many steps above what came before, so you’re safe beginning there. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/78 "2011-07-20T13:08:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t read threads about shows I don’t watch. I mean, what would I have to contribute? You can always add “yeah, what he said.” There’s a handful of shows that I started watching since participating on this board, Breaking Bad for instance. Anyway, to add my “yeah what he said” what everyone said about starting with Ecclestone and working from there. I actually kind of liked the farting aliens though they get a lot of guff around here. Tennant is the best Doctor of the new series, though Ecclestone and Smith are also very, very good. Martha Jones is gorgeous. Donna was a pretty good companion that didn’t deserve that ending. Rose was fine when she was with the Doctor, but they went back to her way to many fracking times already. Amy Pond is cute. I find it awfully obnoxious that River Song can show up the Doctor in his own Tardis; I find their storyline intersting, but I still find her annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/79 "2011-07-20T13:25:31Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > Am I crazy or has this show been running for like forty years? Closer to 50 (started in 1963). Although there’s only about 30 years of actual shows because of the hiatuses. The first 6 years are mostly lost, so, skippable, if you’re not too completionist. As to what to watch - same advice I gave Skald - watch the new series, then, if you want to continue, start with Pertwee (where every serial that’s available on DVD is complete). DVD release is spotty, especially outside the UK, but you can get the beginning and end of Pertwee’s run, and it’s not until Colin Baker that ‘in order’ is too terribly important. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178/80 "2011-07-20T13:29:17Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Start with the nuWho reboot with Ecclestone in 2005, the first episode is called Rose. You can probably hire the DVDs through Netflix one series at a time. A caveat: This is strictly my own opinion, but I think it takes a while for the series to find its legs. I tried watching \*Rose \*when it first came out, made it through a couple more episodes, and gave up; several years later I started watching it again from _The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances_, and it’s been one of my favorite shows ever since. So if the first few eps don’t appeal to you, hop forward to the that double episode - IMHO, it’s where the series really starts being good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-any-of-you-bastards-tell-me-how-wonderful-doctor-who-is/589178.md?page=5)