# Why didn't anyone shoot Jared Loughner before he shot 20 people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035 "2011-01-09T22:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/1 "2011-01-09T22:54:51Z")
Arizona [no longer requires a permit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Arizona) for either concealed or open carry. For a couple of decades, at least, the pro-gun folks have been arguing that if pretty much anyone could pack a weapon in public, massacres like yesterday’s would be a rarity, because Joe Citizen would pull out his gun and shoot the crazy person before the crazy person shot very many people. ISTM that that theory didn’t hold up particularly well in practice yesterday. You can argue that people _should_ be able to carry guns wherever they want to, either because that’s what the Second Amendment really means, or because it’s a natural right, or whatever, regardless of whether it’s a good idea from a strictly utilitarian sense. I’m not gonna touch that one here; that’s not what this thread is about. This OP notes that yesterday’s massacre didn’t exactly support the utilitarian argument for unrestricted carry, and now that a fair number of states have removed many restrictions on carrying firearms since the mid-1990s, wonders what’s the track record: have there been instances that have flown under my radar where someone has interrupted an attempted mass shooting with a bullet of their own, or by making it easier less exceptional for all people to be carrying, have we made it easier for crazies to carry, without any compensatory benefit? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/2 "2011-01-09T23:05:50Z")
Even with unrestricted carry, few will take advantage. Most handguns that are bought for defense are home guns. Carrying can be a royal PITA. Holsters, belts and in some cases new pants to accommodate the gear. Then you need concealing garments for all weathers, hopefully something that doesn’t scream I’M CARRYING!!!. Few who do carry will be able to take a relatively long shot on a shooter. Most people who carry are thinking close range situations. I haven’t seen any tapes of the shooting but at close range and just spraying bullets around without aiming, pretty much anyone could get off 3-5 shots per second. The magazine(15-20 rounds) would be empty before a carrying citizen can draw, locate the target, line up the shot and get that first round off. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/3 "2011-01-09T23:09:24Z")
Seriously? Open/Concealed carry are supposed to stop every single crime, otherwise the premise of allowing them is invalid? Not only that, but a guy opening fire from a crowd is not all that great a situation for a citizen with a concealed weapon, where there’s a very high chance of injuring someone else. You’d probably be talking about the wildly irresponsible evil concealed carry permit holder if someone had tried to intervene. And not only THAT, but if someone had gone to a democratic political rally with a gun strapped onto his hip, you’d have undoubtedly criticized him for that too, right? Because he’d be implicitly implying political violence. Your premise is ridiculous, as is this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/4 "2011-01-09T23:11:04Z")
The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/5 "2011-01-09T23:21:58Z")
Were early reports that somebody had tried to return fire born out? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/6 "2011-01-09T23:22:46Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. Since even Diane Feinstein at one time had a carry permit, I’d say you need to rethink your characterization. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/7 "2011-01-09T23:23:56Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. And it would be a lot harder to shoot a conservative politician in the brain ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/8 "2011-01-09T23:23:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Because he’d be implicitly implying political violence. Not sure how I came up with that sentence construction, but god forgive me. > [@runner pat](#): > > Since even Diane Feinstein at one time had a carry permit, I’d say you need to rethink your characterization. She just got off on the thrill of hypocrisy. “Oh, you miserable proles can’t do this, but the elite can!” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/9 "2011-01-09T23:39:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Arizona [no longer requires a permit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Arizona) for either concealed or open carry. > > For a couple of decades, at least, the pro-gun folks have been arguing that if pretty much anyone could pack a weapon in public, massacres like yesterday’s would be a rarity, because Joe Citizen would pull out his gun and shoot the crazy person before the crazy person shot very many people. > > ISTM that that theory didn’t hold up particularly well in practice yesterday. > > You can argue that people _should_ be able to carry guns wherever they want to, either because that’s what the Second Amendment really means, or because it’s a natural right, or whatever, regardless of whether it’s a good idea from a strictly utilitarian sense. I’m not gonna touch that one here; that’s not what this thread is about. > > This OP notes that yesterday’s massacre didn’t exactly support the utilitarian argument for unrestricted carry, and now that a fair number of states have removed many restrictions on carrying firearms since the mid-1990s, wonders what’s the track record: have there been instances that have flown under my radar where someone has interrupted an attempted mass shooting with a bullet of their own, or by making it easier less exceptional for all people to be carrying, have we made it easier for crazies to carry, without any compensatory benefit? Human beings have the reaction time of human beings. Real life ain’t hollywood. Not too long ago up in Washington State (I believe outskirts of Seattle, could be wrong) a guy walked into a coffee shop where cops hung out in the morning. He pulled out a firearm and killed (or maybe shot) around 4 of them, then walked back out. That’s one guy with a gun taking out several police officers who actually keep their weapons holstered for easy access. The simple fact is, if you aren’t expecting trouble, you aren’t going to be ready for it. The United States being an extremely safe country by any standards of history, most people won’t be ready for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/10 "2011-01-09T23:46:00Z")
We are as yet unaware of the motivation and intended targets, if any, of the shooter. On the surface, he may well have been shooting at random into a crowd. On the other hand, any peace officer, federal agent or responsible gun owner on the scene had only one target and a large crowd of people to avoid shooting. This hypothetical peace officer, federal agent or responsible gun owner is at a massive disadvantage. I also don’t think there’s much point in trying to define the overall politics of a crowd at a Safeway on a Saturday - there may have been a Democratic congresswoman there to meet people, but needing groceries on a Saturday is hardly restricted to right or left political leanings. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/11 "2011-01-09T23:48:28Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > We are as yet unaware of the motivation and intended targets, if any, of the shooter. On the surface, he may well have been shooting at random into a crowd. He had an note in his bedroom that he was intending to assassinate the the Congresswoman. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/12 "2011-01-09T23:48:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Human beings have the reaction time of human beings. Real life ain’t hollywood. Not too long ago up in Washington State (I believe outskirts of Seattle, could be wrong) a guy walked into a coffee shop where cops hung out in the morning. He pulled out a firearm and killed (or maybe shot) around 4 of them, then walked back out. That’s one guy with a gun taking out several police officers who actually keep their weapons holstered for easy access. > > The simple fact is, if you aren’t expecting trouble, you aren’t going to be ready for it. The United States being an extremely safe country by any standards of history, most people won’t be ready for trouble. He killed four. I believe he killed two outright, killed the third when he was getting out of his chair, and there was a struggle with the 4th that lead to the 4th officer being killed and the suspect shot. I’ve not seen a timeline for how long it took between the first shots being fired and the subduing of the suspect, but even in Arizona there’s only a small percentage of people that carry, and someone unarmed simply got there first. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/13 "2011-01-09T23:49:31Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. Yes, because there isn’t a single liberal in the entire country who owns a gun. :rolleyes: Apparently, Rep. Giffords is a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/14 "2011-01-09T23:50:21Z")
But the point still remains that that little girl should have been packin’. I blame the schools for ignoring the Rs: reading, 'riting, and riflemanship. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/15 "2011-01-09T23:53:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He had an note in his bedroom that he was intending to assassinate the the Congresswoman. I stand corrected; I hadn’t read that bit of breaking news yet. The rest of my point remains, however; after the Congresswoman, he was shooting indiscriminately. An officer or gun owner trying to save the situation would have the disadvantage of trying to shoot the gunman without hitting any innocent bystanders. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/16 "2011-01-09T23:55:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Your premise is ridiculous, as is this thread. He doesn’t have a premise; he has a question. You answered, which was nice. Then you decided to deride him and call him ridiculous, presumably because you look down on people who don’t know the answer to his question? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/17 "2011-01-09T23:56:44Z")
Oh please, it was a rhetorical question meant to imply the things I said. Just because someone puts a question mark at the end of a thread title doesn’t mean they aren’t making an argument. “ISTM that that theory didn’t hold up particularly well in practice yesterday.” is not a question, and clearly pushing an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/18 "2011-01-10T00:12:14Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. Did you know that you said this? I’ll bet the number of gun packing democrats in Tucson is roughly the same as gun packing republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/19 "2011-01-10T00:22:58Z")
Look at the situation from the two different points of view. let’s say there were 24 people around the congresswoman. From the shooter’s point of view there are 25 targets. IOW fish in a barrel. From an armed individual’s POV, 1 target 24 bystanders. Not very good odds at all. Life is not Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/20 "2011-01-10T00:29:59Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. > [@sh1bu1](#): > > And it would be a lot harder to shoot a conservative politician in the brain > [@SenorBeef](#): > > She just got off on the thrill of hypocrisy. “Oh, you miserable proles can’t do this, but the elite can!” This thread is not improved by either the sarcasm or the political sniping. Knock it off. [/Moderating] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035.md?page=2)