# Why didn't anyone shoot Jared Loughner before he shot 20 people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035 "2011-01-09T22:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/61 "2011-01-10T16:38:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This OP notes that yesterday’s massacre didn’t exactly support the utilitarian argument for unrestricted carry, and now that a fair number of states have removed many restrictions on carrying firearms since the mid-1990s, wonders what’s the track record: have there been instances that have flown under my radar where someone has interrupted an attempted mass shooting with a bullet of their own, or by making it easier less exceptional for all people to be carrying, have we made it easier for crazies to carry, without any compensatory benefit? There have in fact been instances in which armed individuals have interrupted spree killings or apprehended the killers. These seem to have indeed flown under your radar. I don’t claim this to be an exhaustive list, but these come to mind: [The Pearl, MS school shooting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting)- the shooter was stopped by a principal who retrieved a firearm from his car. [The Edinboro school dance shooting](http://articles.cnn.com/1998-04-25/us/9804_25_school.shooting.pm_1_count-of-criminal-homicide-weapon-and-surrender-west-paducah?_s=PM:US) was stopped by the banquet hall owner who grabbed his shotgun. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/62 "2011-01-10T16:45:20Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > There have in fact been instances in which armed individuals have interrupted spree killings or apprehended the killers. These seem to have indeed flown under your radar. > > I don’t claim this to be an exhaustive list, but these come to mind: > > [The Pearl, MS school shooting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting)- the shooter was stopped by a principal who retrieved a firearm from his car. > > [The Edinboro school dance shooting](http://articles.cnn.com/1998-04-25/us/9804_25_school.shooting.pm_1_count-of-criminal-homicide-weapon-and-surrender-west-paducah?_s=PM:US) was stopped by the banquet hall owner who grabbed his shotgun. Neither of these shooters was stopped mid spree. Both were apprehended after they’d already finished and fled the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/63 "2011-01-10T16:55:23Z")
It’s also not clear having a firearm was the primary cause of the apprehension. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/64 "2011-01-10T17:07:47Z")
[excised; redundant with DtC’s post #62.] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/65 "2011-01-10T17:31:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not exactly a gun-rights activist, but the premise of this thread is ridiculous. One data point doesn’t prove or disprove _any_ theory. The premise of this thread is that Saturday’s shooting is _one data point_ in contradiction of the theory in question, not a disproof of it. But in addition to asking whether there are any data points in support of the theory that I may have missed, I did raise the question of whether one of the takeaways from Saturday is that the theory really doesn’t make any sense to begin with. Some good points raised upthread: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Human beings have the reaction time of human beings. Real life ain’t hollywood. Not too long ago up in Washington State (I believe outskirts of Seattle, could be wrong) a guy walked into a coffee shop where cops hung out in the morning. He pulled out a firearm and killed (or maybe shot) around 4 of them, then walked back out. That’s one guy with a gun taking out several police officers who actually keep their weapons holstered for easy access. > > The simple fact is, if you aren’t expecting trouble, you aren’t going to be ready for it. The United States being an extremely safe country by any standards of history, most people won’t be ready for trouble. > [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > The rest of my point remains, however; after the Congresswoman, he was shooting indiscriminately. An officer or gun owner trying to save the situation would have the disadvantage of trying to shoot the gunman without hitting any innocent bystanders. > [@Rick](#): > > Look at the situation from the two different points of view. let’s say there were 24 people around the congresswoman. > From the shooter’s point of view there are 25 targets. IOW fish in a barrel. > From an armed individual’s POV, 1 target 24 bystanders. Not very good odds at all. Life is not Hollywood. > [@RickJay](#): > > You guys know that a person can fire fifteen or twenty shots REALLY quickly, right? > > It’s sad that we’re already getting into partisan idiocy here when the answer is so obvious; nobody shot the guy because nobody had the time. Everything is fine and then HOLY SHIT WHAT’S HAPPENING SOMEONE’S SHOOTING the guy’s tackled it’s over. It was over before anyone nearby with a gun had a chance. > [@flickster](#): > > That said, just because AZ is an open carry state does not mean that any of those present were carrying, or if there was, those people may not have been able to take a safe shot from within a crowd without putting others in danger. Reviewing the bidding: 1. People can get off a lot of shots pretty damned fast with a semiautomatic pistol, so it’s hard for Joe Citizen to shoot the shooter before he’s gotten a lot of shots off in the first place. 2. If you aren’t expecting trouble, it’s going to take you a few seconds, or longer, to go from ho-hum to WTF?! to pulling out your weapon to try to respond anyway. 3. Hell, you might not have your weapon on you anyway, unrestricted carry notwithstanding. 4. But assuming you do, your chance of a clear shot is small; your chance of hitting an innocent person is substantial. IOW, the likelihood of a given murderous rampage being stopped, mid-rampage, by a good citizen with a handgun is pretty small, no matter how unrestrictive the carry laws are. It’ll happen sometime, no doubt, but it’s a pretty weak argument for getting rid of restrictions on carrying firearms in public. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/66 "2011-01-10T17:43:01Z")
I don’t see how #3 is relevant. You might as well say airbags are pointless because you might roll your car and die anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/67 "2011-01-10T18:40:27Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The shooting was at an event for a Democratic congresswoman, meaning it was attended by a bunch of liberal pussies. If it had been at a conservative congressman’s event, Loughner would have been shot as soon as he showed up. +1 Yeah. That said… If Gabrielle had held her Democrat town meeting at a gun show instead of a supermarket, Loughner would also have been shot as soon as he showed up. Moreover, keep in mind that Loughner was going to reload and attempt to shoot lots more people. It could have been 60 or 90 people shot, who knows how many if he had continued to shoot? Loughner could have been shooting for 20 minutes until someone with a gun showed up to stop him(cops/whatever)? I would say an armed citizen friendly to Gabrielle could probably have easily have taken out Loughner certainly before Loughner could reload, if not before. It actually is a miracle that Loughner did not reload a second, third, fourth, fifth magazine ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/68 "2011-01-10T18:45:52Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > +1 Yeah. > > That said… If Gabrielle had held her Democrat town meeting at a gun show instead of a supermarket, Loughner would also have been shot as soon as he showed up. > > Moreover, keep in mind that Loughner was going to reload and attempt to shoot lots more people. It could have been 60 or 90 people shot, who knows how many if he had continued to shoot? Loughner could have been shooting for 20 minutes until someone with a gun showed up to stop him(cops/whatever)? > > I would say an armed citizen friendly to Gabrielle could probably have easily have taken out Loughner certainly before Loughner could reload, if not before. > > **It actually is a miracle that Loughner did not reload a second, third, fourth, fifth magazine** Because he was tackled by some cowardly pussies. And because he was such a fearsome gun-totin’ gunslinger, he fumbled the reload. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/69 "2011-01-10T18:59:32Z")
I am sure we can all agree that Jared Laughner is not a responsible gun owner. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/70 "2011-01-10T19:04:15Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > That said… If Gabrielle had held her Democrat town meeting at a gun show instead of a supermarket, Loughner would also have been shot as soon as he showed up. So your position is that for concealed carry to actually be effective, crimes must be attempted only at various conventions, gatherings, congresses, or other large assemblies of gun-owning individuals? And then in such gatherings, people are sometimes summarily executed “as soon as he showed up?” Veeeery interesting. On one hand, I’m tempted to publicly wonder what world you live in; on the other, I think I must ask if pre-cogs typically work security at gun shows? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/71 "2011-01-10T19:05:30Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I am sure we can all agree that Jared Laughner is not a responsible gun owner. And thank god we live in a country where irresponsible gun owners still have Second Amendment rights. Give me liberty or give me death! Uh, wait… that didn’t come out right. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/72 "2011-01-10T19:22:42Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > +1 Yeah. > > That said… If Gabrielle had held her Democrat town meeting at a gun show instead of a supermarket, Loughner would also have been shot as soon as he showed up. > > Moreover, keep in mind that Loughner was going to reload and attempt to shoot lots more people. It could have been 60 or 90 people shot, who knows how many if he had continued to shoot? Loughner could have been shooting for 20 minutes until someone with a gun showed up to stop him(cops/whatever)? Of course, if it happened at a gun show, than 60 or 90 people would _surely_ have been killed when everybody else whipped out their firearms. I’m sure you were just getting to that, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/73 "2011-01-10T19:23:17Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It actually is a miracle that Loughner did not reload a second, third, fourth, fifth magazine No, it’s not a miracle. He was jumped by someone when he paused to reload. No need to invoke a supernatural cause for a simple human reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/74 "2011-01-10T19:26:59Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It actually is a miracle that Loughner did not reload a second, third, fourth, fifth magazine If only Loughner had followed Sarah Palin’s advice… ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/75 "2011-01-10T19:32:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > have there been instances that have flown under my radar where someone has interrupted an attempted mass shooting with a bullet of their own … ? [This story](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting)is one. The shooting rampage was stopped when the gunman was cornered by an off-duty cop from another city. I had thought that same officer had killed the gunman, but according to Wikipedia he kept the gunman cornered until SWAT arrived. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/76 "2011-01-10T19:33:26Z")
it appears that at least in arizona, senior citizens are the most effective weapon in stopping a gunman. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/77 "2011-01-10T19:35:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s not a miracle. He was jumped by someone when he paused to reload. No need to invoke a supernatural cause for a simple human reaction. a woman in her 70’s knocked the magazine, and a retired soldier was one of the tacklers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/78 "2011-01-10T20:28:24Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > [This story](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting)is one. The shooting rampage was stopped when the gunman was cornered by an off-duty cop from another city. I had thought that same officer had killed the gunman, but according to Wikipedia he kept the gunman cornered until SWAT arrived. According to that story, he was already cornered by other officers. Law enforcement doesn’t count anyway. We haven’t seen civilians with guns stop a shooting spree. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/79 "2011-01-10T21:21:55Z")
Well, shooting sprees are pretty rare and the vast majority of the populace still doesn’t carry guns, so it isn’t all that surprising that none have been stopped by civilians with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035/80 "2011-01-10T22:20:46Z")
It’s just not very plausible that a civilian _could_ stop a spree. Real life isn’t the movies. It’s not that easy to identify and drop a moving target in the middle of a crowd. Most likely, they’re just going to cause more problems, injure more people, cause more panic and confuse law enforcement. No responsible gun carrier is even likely to attempt it unless the first shooter moves away from the crowd, in which case it’s already too late. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-anyone-shoot-jared-loughner-before-he-shot-20-people/567035.md?page=5)