# Why didn't Ireland ever develop an aquaculture-food/diet base?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 22, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241 "2011-09-22T19:40:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/21 "2011-09-24T17:07:22Z")
> [@hibernicus](#):
>
> Central Europeans and Scandinavians happily eat carp, pike, perch, etc. In Ireland these are not eaten and are generally considered “dirty” or “muddy” fish.
This Scandi says it’s really odd, that pike and perch are considered “dirty” or “muddy” fish in Ireland. They are not bottom feeders but predators and as such taste nothing like the former. Large pike are not that good to eat (often described as “woody”), but small pike and large perch, especially, are true gourmét foods. There are few things in this world I’d rather eat than some perch fillets browned in butter.
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### Author:  [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/22 "2011-09-24T20:51:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> TBH, anybody on a salt sea shore who doesn’t make salt is an idiot … :dubious:
Maybe so, but just be aware that it’s not possible to make salt by natural evaporation in Ireland - you have to boil the sea-water, which is extremely expensive in energy terms.
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### Author:  [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/23 "2011-09-24T20:54:14Z")
There weren’t good death records then, but isn’t the common belief generally that more people died of disease and conditions related to the famine than from starvation directly? (although certainly plenty starved). The economic collapse associated with the potato famine created horrible conditions on all fronts, of which food availability was only one.
From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29):
> [@](#):
>
> It is not known exactly how many people died during the period of the Famine, although it is believed more died from diseases than from starvation
And:
\*She was a fishmonger, But sure 'twas no wonder,
For so were her father and mother before.
And they each wheeled their barrow,
Through streets broad and narrow,
Crying, “Cockles and mussels, alive, alive, oh!”
She died of a fever,\* \*
And no one could save her,
And that was the end of sweet Molly Malone.\*
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/24 "2011-09-24T21:38:19Z")
> [@hibernicus](#):
>
> Maybe so, but just be aware that it’s not possible to make salt by natural evaporation in Ireland - you have to boil the sea-water, which is extremely expensive in energy terms.
:dubious: somehow _mud_ dries out enough to burn, and I don’t think a salt pan is that difficult to make. Unless you are implying the entire coastline is covered by a dark murky fog that somehow blocks off all the sun, leaving the poor laundry womans work to moulder on the line, the dried fish mongers poor little fishies hung on their frames to rot …
They seem to evaporate water just fine everywhere else in the world, especially Brittany, which is cold and damp because _it_ doesn’t have the nice warm water sliding up from the more southern regions of the Atlantic to take the edge off the cold.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/25 "2011-09-24T21:54:15Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#):
>
> The Japanese have developed the intestinal flora to digest seaweed, over many generations. The rest of us sushi newbies just pass it as neutral fiber.
Then why do we have the word “carrageen”, origin of Ireland, as a widespread name for an entire family of seaweeds rather than an Asian term? Read the label of the ice cream at the supermarket, most of them have carrageenan in them these days.
Other terms for edible seaweed that are found (both the words and the weeds) in Ireland include Irish moss, dulse, laver, sea lettuce, and likely others that don’t immediately come to mind.
The Irish have been eating seafood for a long time, much longer than, say, potatoes. Why it doesn’t have the prominence in their diet that seafood has in the Japanese diet is a different matter, but social, political, religious, and economic reasons were no doubt all factors.
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### Author:  [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/26 "2011-09-24T22:00:53Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> :dubious: somehow _mud_ dries out enough to burn, and I don’t think a salt pan is that difficult to make. Unless you are implying the entire coastline is covered by a dark murky fog that somehow blocks off all the sun, leaving the poor laundry womans work to moulder on the line, the dried fish mongers poor little fishies hung on their frames to rot …
>
> They seem to evaporate water just fine everywhere else in the world, especially Brittany, which is cold and damp because _it_ doesn’t have the nice warm water sliding up from the more southern regions of the Atlantic to take the edge off the cold.
I have visited the salt-making facilities in southern Brittany. In fact I was in southern Brittany yesterday. I can assure you that Brittany is considerably warmer and sunnier than Ireland.
In Ireland, you can not get salt crystals by leaving sea-water to evaporate in an open pan. Partial evaporation is possible but then you need to apply heat to boil the brine.
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### Author:  [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/27 "2011-09-25T15:08:36Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> :dubious: somehow _mud_ dries out enough to burn, and I don’t think a salt pan is that difficult to make. Unless you are implying the entire coastline is covered by a dark murky fog that somehow blocks off all the sun, leaving the poor laundry womans work to moulder on the line, the dried fish mongers poor little fishies hung on their frames to rot …
>
> They seem to evaporate water just fine everywhere else in the world, especially Brittany, which is cold and damp because _it_ doesn’t have the nice warm water sliding up from the more southern regions of the Atlantic to take the edge off the cold.
I live near the mouth of the Tyne in North East England, which has a very similar climate to that of Ireland (rather less rainy, if anything) and I can assure you that any poor little fishies hung out on frames around here would most certainly rot before they dried – which is why we invented kippering.
Around here we did have a thriving fishing industry, and — at one time — a salt pan industry too, and hibernicus is quite right about the expense. You can get some sort of idea of what was involved from this:
> [@](#):
>
> The method of obtaining salt was to imprison the sea at high tide in huge vats, draw it off into smaller vessels, and evaporate the moisture partly naturally in hot sunshine and partly artificially by means of several boilings. The salt left behind was then purified. The boiling pans measured about 20 feet by 12 feet by 14 inches deep, built of plates of iron rivetted together with iron nails and the joints filled with a cement. Across the top of the pan were placed several strong bars of iron, and from these, at regular intervals, iron hooks hung down to support the shape of the pan bottom. In 1722 the cost of building a new Pann and Pannhouse was recorded at almost £145 of which more than half was for iron plates and bars. A series of grates beneath the pans boiled the brine. As this evaporated, salt was skimmed and shovelled off and packed into conical shaped wicker baskets to drain. Travelling in the north of England in 1725 Lord Harley described a visit to South Shields. “… which is the chief place for making salt. The houses there are poor little low hovels, and are in a perpetual thick nasty smoke. It has in all 200 salt pans, each employs 3 men. Each pan makes one tun and a quarter of salt at 8 boilings which lasts 3 days and a half. Each consumes 14 chaldrons of coal in 7 days in which time it makes two tuns and a half of salt. The wages for Pumpers, ie; those who pump the salt water into the pans is 5 d. per diem. The watchers, ie; those who continually have an eye to the pans and the fire stoves have 6 d. a day”.
[From _A Portrait of Achievement_ by DH Williams.]
For reference, a Tun = 210 Gallons (954.7 Litres), and a Chaldron of coal = 53 cwt = 5,936 lb (2692.5 kg)
In the end, the salt pans shut down in the 1800s, because – even with a fishing industry to buy the product, a coal industry to supply the fuel, and iron and steel industries to make the pans, all in one spot – it was more economical to transport rock salt nearly 200 miles from Cheshire, than to manufacture it on the spot from sea brine.
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### Author:  [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/28 "2011-09-25T23:18:20Z")
On the famine side of things Ireland’s over population certainly didn’t help things either.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/29 "2011-09-26T14:49:27Z")
Let’s not discount the cultural influences on the ancient Irish, where the size of cattle herds were a status indicator. If you’re off fishing, you’re not watching your herd - any dog could come along and rustle your wealth.
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/30 "2011-09-26T15:06:18Z")
Good comments. The fact was Ireland (in the period) was always subject to famine-dependence upon the potato was symptom of overpoplation and mismanagement (by absentee landlords). With the bulk of the land tied up in huge estates, the poor were forced to farm marginal lands, and when the blight arrived, they were screwed.
The same sitation exists today in many 3rd world countrieslike Somalia-the current population cannot survive on what the land yields.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/31 "2011-09-26T15:13:10Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> :dubious: somehow _mud_ dries out enough to burn, and I don’t think a salt pan is that difficult to make. Unless you are implying the entire coastline is covered by a dark murky fog that somehow blocks off all the sun, leaving the poor laundry womans work to moulder on the line, the dried fish mongers poor little fishies hung on their frames to rot …
>
> They seem to evaporate water just fine everywhere else in the world, especially Brittany, which is cold and damp because _it_ doesn’t have the nice warm water sliding up from the more southern regions of the Atlantic to take the edge off the cold.
However, you are only addressing the extraction of salt. The original point to which you responded was that the fishing industry, (such as it was), did not have the finances to acquire salt. Simply extracting salt is only the beginning of the chain needed to get the salt out onto ocean-going vessels. Fishermen who lacked the resources to pay for the extraction, storage, and transportation of salt in quantity fit the description in the post to which you responded. The coast of Nova Scotia was covered with villages that engaged in salt extraction with the Grand Banks fishing grounds in close proximity, yet most of the people in those villages were engaged in subsistence living and not in providing fish to the rest of Canada. (There was a large Canadian fishing industry, but it was capitalized like any other industry and had little interaction with the people engaged in fishing and salt extraction in the poor villages of the coast.) I suspect that a similar situation was true in Ireland in the same period.
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### Author:  [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/32 "2011-09-26T15:29:38Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> :dubious: somehow _mud_ dries out enough to burn, and I don’t think a salt pan is that difficult to make. Unless you are implying the entire coastline is covered by a dark murky fog that somehow blocks off all the sun, leaving the poor laundry womans work to moulder on the line, the dried fish mongers poor little fishies hung on their frames to rot …
>
> They seem to evaporate water just fine everywhere else in the world, especially Brittany, which is cold and damp because _it_ doesn’t have the nice warm water sliding up from the more southern regions of the Atlantic to take the edge off the cold.
Ever price Brittany sea salt? Salting fish requires a huge amount of salt. Besides, Brittany is warmer and drier than most of Ireland.
Not sure about Ireland, but in England “drying closets” are common. These allow clothes and linens that are still damp when taken off the line to fully dry.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/33 "2011-09-26T15:58:38Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#):
>
> Not sure about Ireland, but in England “drying closets” are common. These allow clothes and linens that are still damp when taken off the line to fully dry.
[Yes, they do!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52bna-tn_dY)
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### Author:  [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/34 "2011-09-26T16:40:02Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#):
>
> Ever price Brittany sea salt? Salting fish requires a huge amount of salt. Besides, Brittany is warmer and drier than most of Ireland.
>
> Not sure about Ireland, but in England “drying closets” are common. These allow clothes and linens that are still damp when taken off the line to fully dry.
Yeah they’re called hot presses here and airing cupboards in Britain.
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### Author:  [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-ireland-ever-develop-an-aquaculture-food-diet-base/597241/35 "2011-09-27T04:38:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> Inefficient, perhapss, but hardly [spiritless](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_whiskey#Irish_whiskey_distilleries)…
🙂
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