# Why didn't Jesus write anything down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712 "2011-02-26T17:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/81 "2011-02-27T15:59:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s highly unlikely that anything written by Jesus himself would not have been preserved, revered and endlessly copied from the start. It’s also highly unlikely that the existence of anything written by Jesus himself would not have been mentioned anywhere in any early Christian literature. That makes sense. It also seems likely that one of his more literate disciples might think to start writing things down. Jesus spoke often of the scriptures and they were very much a part of the Jewish tradition. It also seems possible that , not anticipating the crucifixion, nobody began writing things down until after that event. His actual teaching time was relatively short. By the time early Christian writings were being divided into officially sanctioned and not sanctioned as scripture many things had changed and the very concept of Jesus and his mission was part of the sorting process. It’s possible more accurate writings about Jesus teachings were tossed in favor of the preferred doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/82 "2011-02-27T16:08:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No problem. My reading and research on the highly stratified, and brutally repressive, economic and social classes of the world Jesus lived in have been highly enlightening to me. Understanding that context really provides a lot of insight into his mission and his appeal. Here was a guy who was saying that those on the very bottom, those below even the peasant classes - the utterly destitute, the prostitutes, the beggars, the lepers, the winos and the cripples - were the heirs to the Kingdom of God. That “the last will be first and the first will be last,” that there would be a complete reversal of the social order and the “rich” (a word which had much different conotations in Jesus’ time than it does now - he was talking about a very small and extremely brutal and exploitive overclass in a system which had virtually no vertical mobility) would find themselves with nothing, while the poor and oppressed would find themselves with everything. It’s no wonder that Christianity was exceptionally popular with slaves, and that they were among the largest segment of early converts in the Roman empire. A thought provoking point. When I’m in a political discussion about social programs and someone is saying how ineffective they are and that according to Jesus charitable giving should be voluntary not forced by government , I often think or ask , “then why haven’t Christians made these programs unnecessary?” Over and over again in the NT, you see Jesus stressing reaching out to those in need as a reflection of our true state of heart and mind. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/83 "2011-02-27T16:11:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The movie \*Stigmata \*(horrible, by the way, don’t watch it) played with that idea - the plot centers around a Gospel of Jesus that is found, but suppressed by the Church as heretical forgery because its teachings go entirely against doctrine. > > Now, of course this is fanciful drek from Hollywood, and like you say it’s very unlikely that writings from the big man himself would have not been worshipped like his sandal and gourd (😉 ) if his followers were aware of it. > Then again, first Paul then the various Councils which decided upon the canon (and adapted Christianity for the Roman empire) had their agenda and views which may or may not have reflected that of the founder. It’s not entirely out of the question that they’d try to destroy or at least make heavy handed edits to texts that weren’t in line with them. Executive Meddling as applied to religion, if you will. > > I don’t believe that at all, by the way. I’m just saying it’s not impossible. Right, by the time the votes were being cast as to what writings were going to be canon, the copies of copies of copies of anything Jesus might have written could have been rejected as not in line with the most popular doctrine. Just as something like The Gospel of Thomas , a collection of his sayings, might have been rejected if certain passages seemed to conflict with the preferred doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/84 "2011-02-27T16:15:19Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Jesus didn’t write anything down because they hadn’t invented the Cross pen. And the last supper was affected by the lack of Joseph and Mary salt and Pepper shakers and the twelve apostles silverware set. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/85 "2011-02-27T17:14:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The idea of writing history as fact is a fairly recent invention. I’m not sure exactly when the crossover point is (likely around the Renaissance), but in olden times if you wrote down a story it was for one of two reasons: > > 1. To teach a moral lesson. > 2. To destroy the image of your enemies. > > Factuality wasn’t a concern. While it’s true that ancient historians had a different attitude and approach than modern historians, I find it really, really hard to believe that _telling what actually happened_ never even crossed their minds. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/86 "2011-02-27T18:14:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, yes, the translation of the word is techincally correct, but DtC is using atheist sources… Maybe it’s because I’m an atheist, but I have no issue with “atheist sources.” Research is correct or it isn’t regardless of the authors biases or lack thereof, right? But anyway, thanks for the rest of your thorough post. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Why do we have nothing Jesus wrote? Well, does anyone doubt Pontius Pilate was literate? He was a Roman Bureaucrat- he wrote scads of stuff. Not only does nothing he wrote survive, but in fact there’s hardly any period mention of him (outside sources that also mention Jesus). In fact for decades, the same doubters who today claim Jesus never existed, also claimed Pilate was mythical. I have no doubt that both Pilate and Jesus existed. That said, I’m still attracted to the idea that Jesus had dedicated followers who would have been highly motivated to preserve his works whereas- so far as I know- Pilate had no such popular appeal. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/87 "2011-02-27T18:18:46Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > People supporting things that they know are wrong are destructive to society. You seem to be one of them. Wow. I’ll just offer that you know squat about me and that the dangers I pose to society notwithstanding, people (like you apparently) who don’t read the whole thread before posting are destructive to the conversation. Did you see this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13509867&postcount=30), by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/88 "2011-02-27T18:20:06Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > If someone wants to exclude such an obvious explanation to a question then they should be disregarded. Fine. Disregard me. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/89 "2011-02-27T18:25:43Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > My sense regarding the purpose of the life of Jesus was not to start a movement, but simply to live a just and rewarding life and share the knowledge that he had with those who he interacted with. > > As such there was no reason for him to write a book. > > The agenda to start a Christian movement came after his death. Not addressing the problematic issue of “purpose”, I’m certainly coming around to the idea that I’ve harbored a distorted view of Jesus’ relative importance as a historical figure during his life and after his death. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/90 "2011-02-27T18:31:28Z")
Itinerant preachers like Jesus were fairly common. Do we have any written documents from any of them? ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/91 "2011-02-27T18:32:16Z")
Wow, I read a “no” where there wasn’t one. This post was completely invalid. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/92 "2011-02-27T18:38:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > > …the poor and oppressed would find themselves with everything. It’s no wonder that Christianity was exceptionally popular with slaves, and that they were among the largest segment of early converts in the Roman empire. > > A thought provoking point. When I’m in a political discussion about social programs and someone is saying how ineffective they are and that according to Jesus charitable giving should be voluntary not forced by government , I often think or ask , "then why haven’t Christians made these programs unnecessary?.. Not to mention that there is something very inspiring about the notion that it’s OK if your wordly life sucks so long as your eternal afterlife will make up for it later. So much the better if the guy who spent all that time whipping you ends up in hell. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/93 "2011-02-27T18:39:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > And the last supper was affected by the lack of Joseph and Mary salt and Pepper shakers and the twelve apostles silverware set. In fairness, the Last Supper predates the Home Shopping Network by… at least 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/94 "2011-02-27T18:46:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Itinerant preachers like Jesus were fairly common. Do we have any written documents from any of them? This is a fair question and one I should have thought to ask. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/95 "2011-02-27T18:51:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not using “atheist sources.” I don’t even know what thsoe would be. > Pontius Pilate was a Roman nobleman, not a Jewish peasant. The comparison makes no sense. > > The existence of Jesus has nothing to do with this discussion, and is not seriously doubted by me or by modern scholarly consensus. I can also say that the trope that the existence of Pilate was ever denied by Biblical scholars is total bullshit. An apologist canard. > > Jesus would have had no access to education. That’s all there is to it. Subpeasants in Galilee (which was not part of Judea) did not go to school. . They are the only sources you ever use, when you can be bothered to actually use a cite. Here are more source which say your take on reading more into the definition of tekton is wrong: > **[jesuspolice.com](http://ww38.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=5)** > > This domain may be for sale! \*the text of the Gospels say only tekton, which can be read in the broad sense as “builder of houses…” (Craveri, 1967, p. 6) “It [the word tekton] certainly did not identify Jesus and Joseph as woodworkers. More precisely it defined them as men with skills - learned men, who were masters of what they did.” (Gardner, 2001, p. 27) "It [tekton] can refer to a worker in wood, or in stone. I agree that this likely means Jesus and his family used both sorts of materials to build houses, since stones were the normal main material used to construct a house in Galilee. (Witherington, 2006, [http://benwitherington.blogspot.com](http://benwitherington.blogspot.com)) “In the Gospels…a tekton [is] a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple.” (Starbird, 2003, p. 53) THE REALITY The common conception of Joseph is that he was a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), however, this is a mis-translation of the Greek word, tecton (tekton), which more accurately should be called “general contractor”, or more provocatively, “Master of the Craft” (Gardner, 2001). In fact, the Protoevangelium of James, [1] which concerns the lives of Jesus’ parents, specifically identifies Joseph as a general contractor. The Blueletter Bible offers various translations of tekton - (1) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder, (2) any craftsman, or workman (e.g., the art of poetry, maker of songs), and (3) a planner, contriver, plotter, or (4) an author. \* > **[tekton](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/tekton.1357402/)** > > Hi, there. I need to know if the Greek word tekton is translated into English as carpenter or stone cutter, please? > **[Yahoo Search - Web Search](https://search.yahoo.com/)** > > The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web. Yes, and that was my point. Even if Jesus was literate, at most he’d have written very little. Pilate must have written reams of stuff yet we have a single line of his. In fact we have almost nothing in the way of day to day bureaucratic documents from that period. > **[Pilate stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone)** > > The Pilate stone is a damaged block of carved limestone, with dimensions 82 cm × 65 cm (32 in × 26 in), which bears a partially intact inscription attributed to Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judaea in the 1st century AD. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. > The limestone block was discovered in June 1961 by Italian archaeologist Maria Teresa Fortuna Canivet during a campaign led by Antonio Frova \[it\] while excavating in the area of an an... _Most scholars questioned the actual existence of a Roman Governor with the name Pontius Pilate, the procurator who ordered Jesus’ crucifixion. Similarly they questioned the historical reliability of the Gospels. However in June 1961, Italian archaeologists led by Dr. Antonio Frova were excavating an ancient Roman amphitheater near Caesarea-on-the-Sea (Maritima). They uncovered a limestone block. On the face is an engraved inscription which is part of a larger dedication to Tiberius Caesar which clearly says that it was from “Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea.” [8] This was a significant development in the quest for the historical Jesus, as scholars have confirmed the inscription to be authentic. [9_ Both tomndebb and I have given you cites that have shown that there was great FREE access to education by the Jews during that period. You simply stating otherwise is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/96 "2011-02-27T18:56:41Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > If you don’t care about the truth you should at least be aware of your need for a justification of your self-centered convoluted state of being that you are seeking from others. > > People supporting things that they know are wrong are destructive to society. You seem to be one of them. You need to back off here. The OP is trying to focus the debate, and personal criticism is not called for. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/97 "2011-02-27T18:57:52Z")
> [@trabajabamos](#): > > ..why precisely you think these popular teachers never bothered to write things down and instead chose to entrust their message entirely to their followers. There is an possible answer. It has little to do with the teacher himself and everything with the followers, or rather, the ambitious apostle Paul type of “follower”. The kind of follower that starts a religion himself. It is common for anyone who wants to start a cult or religion, to base it not on his own teachings, but on someone elses. That has a number of advantages. If the “original teacher” had been dead or gone long enough, it is possible to romanticize him to the specs you need. People love to idolize someone, but it is harder for them if they know too much of him or have hung out with him in daily life and found out he’s just human like everyone else. A good manager/founder will know that inevitably people will find fault with himself, but will try to project all that is good and holy on the image of the original " teacher". A teacher who hasn’t written down anything is even better for this purpose, because then the “Paul” can cherrypick his teachings to his own needs. Oddly, I found this out when I took an motivational course with my co-workers and the speaker rattled off his usual sell-speak of how his theory wasn’t his own, but someone elses. And that someone else was a insanely great guy who had developed that theory by hanging out with wise, old Hopi Indians as well as captains of industry. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/98 "2011-02-27T19:19:40Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > "While ‘tekton’ is usually said to mean carpenter, it more accurately means master builder or architect. No it doesn’t. It means “builder,” and is an all-encompassing term refering to all manner of workers and laborors associated with building or repairs. As applied to Galilean Jews, though, it referred to the underclass of day laborors as I’ve described. > [@](#): > > Besides, in most English translations of the Bible Joseph is described as a ‘just man’. But Bradford says the word ‘man’ is not in the original Greek text and the word translated as ‘just’ really means a senior religious scholar involved in the judiciary. Ἰωσὴφ δὲ ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς δίκαιος ὢν… (MT 1:19) “Joseph, her husband, being a righteous man…” Bradford is full of shit. _Dikaios_ means “Righteous,” “just,” “virtuous,” Obedient to God." It is not a title, it’s an adjective. It only has reference to the judiciary as a descriptor for those who make sound judgements. Incidentally, it means nothing that the word “man” is not actuially found in the Greek. It is common in Greek to use adjectives as nouns with an implied object. (“she was a beautiful [one]” He was a fat [one]") We do it in English too, but more often with plurals (“The good, the bad and the ugly”). Matthew does not say that Joseph was a judge or a scholar (the suggestion is frankly ludicrous). It basically just says he was decent. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/99 "2011-02-27T19:37:31Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > While it’s true that ancient historians had a different attitude and approach than modern historians, I find it really, really hard to believe that _telling what actually happened_ never even crossed their minds. They often didn’t know what actually happened, and frequently didn’t care. Their objective wasn’t necessarily to relate what happened but to create a heroic or romantic narrative. Having said that, the writers of the Gospels weren’t exactly lying or fabricating. They were working largely blind and trying to infer a lot of things about Jesus from the Septuagint and from whatever other meager sources (e.g. sayings gospels) they had available to them. Matthew and Luke both put Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (albeit using vastly different devices and timelines) because they sincerely thought the Messiah _had_ to have been born in Bethlehem. They weren’t lying in their minds. They were relating what they assumed _must_ have been essentially true. There’s a lot of stuff in the Gospel narratives that is essentially derived from the Old Testament. These passages often have completely different contexts in the OT, but if Matthew or Luke thought they saw something that could be construed as a reference to Jesus, they did so. They were _trying_ to write “what actually happened,” but they were using a methodology that was, shall we say, rather loose. They probably also believed they had some kind of divine guidance or inspiration going for them. If they felt like God was showing them good info in the OT, that was good enough for them. They weren’t cynical liars, just the opposite, they were extremely credulous and trusting that they were being guided in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/100 "2011-02-27T22:27:22Z")
So what it boils down to is that if Jesus wasn’t stupid then he was lazy. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712.md?page=6)