# Why didn't Jesus write anything down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712 "2011-02-26T17:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/101 "2011-02-27T23:02:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it doesn’t. It means “builder,” and is an all-encompassing term refering to all manner of workers and laborors associated with building or repairs. As applied to Galilean Jews, though, it referred to the underclass of day laborors as I’ve described.. Dio got a cite?:dubious: Since we have given you 3-4 of them now, and they all disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/102 "2011-02-27T23:19:45Z")
I haven’t seen cites to the contrary, just unsupported assertions. For the record, my cite is John Crossan’s _Historical Jesus_. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/103 "2011-02-27T23:49:26Z")
DrDeth posted a lot of info. It’s all wrong then, eh? :dubious: Interesting background on Crossan, and the [Jesus Seminar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar), he being a founding father: > [@](#): > > The Jesus Seminar is a group of about 150 biblical scholars and laymen founded in 1985 by Robert Funk and John Dominic Crossan under the auspices of the Westar Institute. \ > > The method and conclusions of the Jesus Seminar have come under harsh criticism by some biblical scholars, historians and clergy for a variety of reasons, including the following: the Fellows of the seminar are not all trained scholars, their voting technique doesn’t allow for nuance, they are preoccupied with Q and the Gospel of Thomas, but omit material in other possibly earlier sources such as the Gospel of the Hebrews, and they rely excessively on the criterion of dissimilarity. \ > > Dale Allison of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, in his 1999 book Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet, cited what he felt were problems with the work of (particularly) John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg, arguing that their conclusions were at least in part predetermined by their theological positions. \ > > Luke Timothy Johnson[30] of the Candler School of Theology at Emory University, in his 1996 book The Real Jesus, voiced concerns with the seminar’s work. He criticized the techniques of the Seminar, believing them to be far more limited for historical reconstruction than seminar members believe. Their conclusions were “already determined ahead of time,” Johnson says, which “is not responsible, or even critical scholarship. It is a self-indulgent charade.” I’m in no position to point out who is more credible (I have not read the book you referenced), but I am suggesting that Crossan does appear to be at least somewhat controversial. Dio, don’t take this the wrong way, but I also found it a bit revealing why you’d find him a reliable source. A light bulb went off, in other words, that illuminated some of your posts in this and other threads. Perhaps I read too much into his association with the Jesus Seminar. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/104 "2011-02-28T01:59:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > While it’s true that ancient historians had a different attitude and approach than modern historians, I find it really, really hard to believe that _telling what actually happened_ never even crossed their minds. I don’t think I could write a better response to your post than Diogenes did. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13512708&postcount=99](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13512708&postcount=99) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/105 "2011-02-28T03:54:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I haven’t seen cites to the contrary, just unsupported assertions.. You can actually say we (with those dandy cites and sources) have _unsupported assertions_, when you have not provided a single cite? It is to laff. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/106 "2011-02-28T03:58:19Z")
You haven’t provided any cites. I just did. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/107 "2011-02-28T03:59:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I don’t think I could write a better response to your post than Diogenes did. Sure you could. You could find an actual expert out there, say a historian, maybe with a PhD, with a dandy peer reviewed article, and see what he _sez._ For example- the Gospel of John was written\* by the Apostle John, who was \*with Jesus \*during the final years. Or you can listen to someone who has no cites or sources- other than his own posts. - prob actually dictated, but other than Ceasar, most ancients dictated their stuff to scribes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/108 "2011-02-28T04:03:27Z")
No serious scholar thinks that the Gospel of John was dicated by John. You really should branch out beyond Christian apologist websites and read some genuine scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/109 "2011-02-28T04:17:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For the record, my cite is John Crossan’s _Historical Jesus_. That’s not what Crossan says in the book, IIRC. Crossan doesn’t deny that tekton means carpenter. He argues (from Lenski’s theory of social structures in agrarian societies) that carpenters, as part of the Artisan Class (Lenski’s term), are lower in socioeconomic status than farmers/peasants. Or, as Crossan himself puts in in part of a Frontline documentary. > [@](#): > > The difficulty for us in hearing a term like “carpenter” is that we immediately think of a highly skilled worker and, at least in North America, in the middle class, making a very high income. As soon as we take that into the ancient world, we are totally lost because, first of all, there was no middle class in the ancient world. There were the haves and the have nots, to put it very simply. And in the anthropology of peasant societies, to say that somebody is an artisan or a carpenter is not to compliment them. It is to say that they are lower in the pecking order than a peasant farmer. But that doesn’t mean that tekton doesn’t mean carpenter or means unskilled laborer. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/110 "2011-02-28T04:18:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No serious scholar thinks that the Gospel of John was dicated by John. You really should branch out beyond Christian apologist websites and read some genuine scholarship. Got you there: Your very own words: \*\*Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*\* “\*This is not the only reason. In fact, it’s the least of the reasons. I have Raymond Brown’s Introduction to the New Testament right here in front of me, Brown was a Catholic Priest and considere by contemporary standards to be a conservative scholar.” \* [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&page=2) My reply: Ok, let us use Brown. > **[Raymond E. Brown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Brown)** > > Raymond Edward Brown PSS (May 22, 1928 – August 8, 1998) was an American Sulpician priest and prominent biblical scholar. He was a specialist on the hypothetical Johannine community, which he speculated contributed to the authorship of the Gospel of John, and he also wrote studies on the birth and death of Jesus. > Brown was professor emeritus at Union Theological Seminary (UTS) in New York City, where he taught for 29 years. He was the first Catholic professor to gain tenure there, where he e... And assume he is _“Brown has been described as “the premier Johannine scholar in the English-speaking world”.[15] Terrence T. Prendergast stated that “for nearly 40 years Father Brown caught the entire church up into the excitement and new possibilities of scriptural scholarship.”_ But then "_Brown identifies three layers of text in John: 1) an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus; 2) a structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources; and 3) the edited version that readers know today (Brown 1979)."_ Let me bold that first part for you " **an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus"** Thus, according \*to your own expert- \*the Gospel of John was based upon the Apostle Johns own personal experience of Jesus. More or less the same conclusion is reached in _The Oxford Companion to the Bible,_ which draws upon the collected expertise of some \*250 noted historians and biblical scholars. \* So, that’s 251 “serious scholars” to your \*no sources at all. \* ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/111 "2011-02-28T04:32:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s not what Crossan says in the book, IIRC. Crossan doesn’t deny that tekton means carpenter. He argues (from Lenski’s theory of social structures in agrarian societies) that carpenters, as part of the Artisan Class (Lenski’s term), are lower in socioeconomic status than farmers/peasants. Or, as Crossan himself puts in in part of a Frontline documentary. > > But that doesn’t mean that tekton doesn’t mean carpenter or means unskilled laborer. _Tekton_ doesn’t mean “carpenter,” and I didn’t say it meant "unskilled laboror,: I said it means “builder,” (which it does), and that it referred to a range of unskilled jobs, but yes, Crossan says that artisans were a class below even that of peasants. I’ve said that myself several times on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/112 "2011-02-28T04:35:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Got you there: > Your very own words: > \*\*Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*\* > “\*This is not the only reason. In fact, it’s the least of the reasons. I have Raymond Brown’s Introduction to the New Testament right here in front of me, Brown was a Catholic Priest and considere by contemporary standards to be a conservative scholar.” > \* > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=595930&page=2) > > My reply: Ok, let us use Brown. > [Raymond E. Brown - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Brown) > > And assume he is _“Brown has been described as “the premier Johannine scholar in the English-speaking world”.[15] Terrence T. Prendergast stated that “for nearly 40 years Father Brown caught the entire church up into the excitement and new possibilities of scriptural scholarship.”_ > > But then "_Brown identifies three layers of text in John: 1) an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus; 2) a structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources; and 3) the edited version that readers know today (Brown 1979)."_ > > Let me bold that first part for you " **an initial version Brown considers based on personal experience of Jesus"** > > Thus, according \*to your own expert- \*the Gospel of John was based upon the Apostle Johns own personal experience of Jesus. > > More or less the same conclusion is reached in _The Oxford Companion to the Bible,_ which draws upon the collected expertise of some \*250 noted historians and biblical scholars. \* > > So, that’s 251 “serious scholars” to your \*no sources at all. \* There are ZERO serious scholars who think that the Gospel of John was dictaed by the apostle. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Even Raymond Brown didn’t think that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/113 "2011-02-28T04:41:34Z")
What Brown thought was that it may have had a core based on anecdotal statements from the apostle, but that’s nt the same as sayiong the canonical Gospel was dictated by John. Even if such a layer stemmed initially from an apostle (which it probably didn’t), the bulk of the book is layered fiction by other authors. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/114 "2011-02-28T04:46:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > _Tekton_ doesn’t mean “carpenter,” and I didn’t say it meant "unskilled laboror,: I said it means “builder,” (which it does), and that it referred to a range of unskilled jobs, but yes, Crossan says that artisans were a class below even that of peasants. I’ve said that myself several times on this board. Except _tekton_ usuallly refers to skilled labor, not unskilled. Can you find any Greek source where it refers to unskilled jobs? And I wouldn’t say “below even that of peasants”. In Lenski’s theory, peasants make up the top of the Plebian social class. Here’s a copy of Lenski’s social class diagram, if you’re curious: [http://www.jcu.edu/Bible/205/Readings/LenskiDiagram.jpeg](http://www.jcu.edu/Bible/205/Readings/LenskiDiagram.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/115 "2011-02-28T04:50:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure you could. You could find an actual expert out there, say a historian, maybe with a PhD, with a dandy peer reviewed article, and see what he _sez._ About the veracity of ancient writings? Pointing out that people used to throw in all sorts of wacky shit to what they wrote isn’t even a comment on the Bible. According t ancient writers, Archimedes had a giant death ray made out of mirrors, the [children’s crusade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_children's_crusade) was an actual event, and King Arthur was a mighty ancient king. In the case of the Children’s Crusade, the story seems almost entirely to have been a gross distortion of the crudest real events, for the sake of a moral fable. If I knew a PhD in a pre-Renaissance field, I’d have little doubt that he couldn’t point out a sufficient list of hagiographic texts to make your head explode. [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2011/who-killed-jesus), at least, agrees that “The authors of the gospels weren’t writing objective history; they were trying to convert a particular audience, and their words reflect that.” Why do you particularly doubt the existence of hagiographic, propagandic, and libelous writings, in ancient times? Just going through the Straight Dope columns, you’ll come across a dozen instances being cited. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/116 "2011-02-28T05:05:47Z")
> [@trabajabamos](#): > > **Why didn’t Jesus write anything down?**. Did your parents write down stuff for you? Basic messages don’t require dictation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/117 "2011-02-28T05:09:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except _tekton_ usuallly refers to skilled labor, not unskilled. Can you find any Greek source where it refers to unskilled jobs? The New Testament. 🆒 Sereiously, I’ll dig out my Liddell and Scott and find some attestations, but probably not tonight. That’s work. > [@](#): > > And I wouldn’t say “below even that of peasants”. In Lenski’s theory, peasants make up the top of the Plebian social class. Here’s a copy of Lenski’s social class diagram, if you’re curious: Your link won’t display on my computer, for some reason, but being at the top of the plebian classes doesn’t mean much. The entirety of the plebian strata were bad off. The artisans were part of the second lowest social class, above that of only the utterly destitute and the outcasts, the veritable paraiahs that Jesus took his mission to, and proclaimed as those who would inherit the Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/118 "2011-02-28T05:12:34Z")
To continue my point, here’s the Wikipedia page on [Recorded History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recorded_history): > [@](#): > > Recorded history begins with the accounts of the ancient world by antiquity’s own historians. Although **it is important to take into account the bias of each ancient author** , their accounts are the basis for our understanding of the ancient past. The earliest chronologies date back to Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt, though no historical writers in these early civilizations were known by name. Some of the more notable ancient historians include: Herodotus, Thucydides, Polybius, Manetho (Greek historiography), Zuo Qiuming, Sima Qian (Chinese historiography), Livy, Sallust, Plutarch, Tacitus, Suetonius (Roman historiography). > > In pre-modern societies, epic poetry, mythography, collections of legends, and religious texts were often treated as sources of historical information, and so one may see references to such writers as Homer, Vyasa, Valmiki and to such works as the Biblical Book of Exodus as historical sources; **however, the authors of these texts were not concerned with determining what happened in the past, but were instead concerned with creating a cultural narrative based upon or supplementing history, and so their testimony should be used with caution**. (Bolding added) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/119 "2011-02-28T05:20:24Z")
Further continuation from [Philosophy of History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_history): > [@](#): > > Herodotus, considered by some as the first systematic historian, and, later, Plutarch freely invented speeches for their historical figures and chose their historical subjects with an eye toward morally improving the reader. History was supposed to teach one good examples to follow. The assumption that history “should teach good examples” influenced how history was written. Events of the past are just as likely to show bad examples that are not to be followed, but these historians would either not record them or re-interpret them to support their assumption of history’s purpose. Admittedly, this section is marked as needing citation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712/120 "2011-02-28T05:22:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Your link won’t display on my computer, for some rfeason, but being at the top of the plebian classes doesn’t mean much. The entirety of the plebian strata were bad off. The artisans were part of the second lowest social class, above that of only the utterly destitute and the outcasts, the veritable pariahs. Yes, but in Lenski, it’s not that strict a hierarchy…which is to say, it’s possible in Lenski’s model for a successful artisan to be higher in social class than a poor peasant. What makes the artisan class as a whole lower than the peasant class is that they don’t own land, and hence, can’t pass down their wealth or arrange advantageous marriages. And all that’s only if you agree with Lenski’s model in the first place. Other sociologists don’t, you know, and I think it’s important to note that when Lenski is looking at the status of artisans, he’s largely focusing on 19th century Chinese and 13th century Fleming artisans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-jesus-write-anything-down/572712.md?page=7)