# Why didn't Native Americans develop alcohol? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039 "2012-08-01T06:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/41 "2012-08-02T06:15:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > A quick search for cazalla and orujo (two kinds of aguardiente made in Spain which are the strongest and roughest traditional liquors we have) brings up results with up to 49%. Getting more would require redistillation. > > I think they may confusing proof (which is used only in some countries, and I’ve never seen it used in Hispanic or Portuguese-speaking ones) with the actual alcohol content. I’ve had to explain the difference to many people who couldn’t understand labels listing proof and who thought their US-bought drinks had twice as much alcohol as they did. Orujo sounds a little familiar if it’s pronounced ah-roo-hoe. Maybe there’s a Portuguese name that’s similar. I don’t think they’re confusing percent with proof, I think they’re old men and if they mention a number in describing their personal feats, you can usually divide it in half. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/42 "2012-08-02T06:22:50Z")
Sorry, I don’t understand English phonics when given like that, I need references. _Orujo_ is pronounced _orujo_, no _aes_, but who knows what word you were thinking of when you said “ah”… (sorry, but with the amount of threads on dialectal pronunciations and having seen people here say that “Spanish _de_ is pronounced day” where I’d Spanish-phonics day as _déi_, I realized I can’t make any assumptions about how any of you pronounce anything). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/43 "2012-08-02T06:28:30Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Sorry, I don’t understand English phonics when given like that, I need references. _Orujo_ is pronounced _orujo_, no _aes_, but who knows what word you were thinking of when you said “ah”… (sorry, but with the amount of threads on dialectal pronunciations and having seen people here say that “Spanish _de_ is pronounced day” where I’d Spanish-phonics day as _déi_, I realized I can’t make any assumptions about how any of you pronounce anything). This is funny. We’re in the same boat with each other’s languages. But I think [Orujo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orujo) is the right stuff. The wiki doesn’t offer a pronunciation, but it does mention it is like grappa which has also been used. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/44 "2012-08-02T06:35:58Z")
What about [freeze distillation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_freezing#Alcoholic_beverages)? The link I posted earlier noted that American colonists made [applejack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_%28beverage%29) with alcohol content of 30-40%. From what I can glean from the article, it looks to me as if the colonists had the same basic resources available to them (fruit, a cold winter, jars) that the Indians would have had before them. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t even look as if yeast was involved. (Although maybe the Indians would have even had that, [in some form](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=660047) . . .) ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/45 "2012-08-02T06:42:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think there’s evidence that plenty of cultures have discovered that bubbly berry juice might have some nice properties. But outside of Europe how much development beyond basic fermented drinks was there? Outside of Europe, or outside the Old World? Because China and Japan certainly had distillation technology. The Arab nations as well. But most of the traditional alcohols were still fermented, much like in Europe. I’m unaware of any distilled beverages outside the Old World however. Also, distilled beverages were traditionally considered medicinal, and drunkenness was usually looked down upon as foolish and irresponsible. The ancient Greeks for example would even cut their wine with water - they thought pure wine was dangerous in large quantities. And yes, native Americans north of Texas knew alcohol. Keep in mind they were pre-literate, and usually preferred more functional, less delicate forms of pottery with simple geometric designs. References to alcohol are therefore sparse, but we do have references - usually from tapestries or religious stories. The Iroquois brewed a kind of beer from tree sap, as has been mentioned. I’m sure if I looked hard enough I could find something in the Northwest as well, but it’d probably take a while to sift through the modern info and the false stuff. > [@TriPolar](#): > > For some varieties, which may not be considered wine anymore, they add alcohol. That’s way the high strength Port is made. I think they use something distilled from crappy wine. If I understand it correctly, at some concentration the alcohol kills the yeast and fermentation can’t continue. Those are called fortified wines - a wine with a distilled alcohol mixed in. Usually brandy, to keep the flavor. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/46 "2012-08-02T12:16:14Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > How does wine get to 15% and above alcohol? Is it special yeast or enough sugar in the juice or both? It doesn’t usually (unless it’s fortified). The highest I’ve seen is around 15 to 15.5% for a really dry zin or similar. Usually, there’s not enough sugar in the must to get it higher than that, and adding sugar to your grape juice (to raise potential alcohol levels) is generally not considered desirable. However, there are plenty of yeasts that will eat through sugar and survive at near 20% alcohol ranges. [See here for a list](http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp) of winemaking yeasts and their alcohol ceilings. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/47 "2012-08-02T13:01:05Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > You’ve got to wonder why anyone was inspired to suggest “Let’s shove it up there and see what happens”. I wondered that myself. Maybe a soursop fruit fell from a tree, fermented in the tropical heat, and someone walking through the forest slipped on the soursop peel and sat on the stinky puddle _real fast_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/48 "2012-08-02T14:14:34Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I wondered that myself. Maybe a soursop fruit fell from a tree, fermented in the tropical heat, and someone walking through the forest slipped on the soursop peel and sat on the stinky puddle _real fast_. 😉 It was a million to one chance, doc! A MILLION TO ONE! ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039/49 "2012-08-02T15:01:00Z")
So, the question that still appears to be unresolved is this: Did any indigenous North American people in the area now known as the USA brew wine or beer prior to contact with other cultures? ack… That wasn’t precise enough. OK, let me try again. Let me pick a time… how about 1200 CE? Let me pick a culture… how about the Creek? Did they or any of their trading partners brew wine or beer? If so, why is this unknown to us? If not, then why not, given the inevitable result of natural fermentation? That is somewhat better. I am distracted. There are _children_ present. I must leave now. (Worse than CATS!) ETA: Even worse is to be nijaed on this while dealing with a nerf pistol wielding 6 year old. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-native-americans-develop-alcohol/630039.md?page=2)