# Why Didn't North American Indians Develop Alcoholic Beverages **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 5, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553 "2007-08-05T23:49:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/1 "2007-08-05T23:49:23Z")
Before you start, yes, I know that the Aztecs had _pulque_, and there were reportedly mild alcoholic brews in some places in the Southeast, and in South America (and elsewhere), they had (as a recent thread said) “Spit wine”. But there clearly was no tradition of wine or other fermented beverages among most of the American Indians. This strikes me as extremely odd. There were alcoholic beverages throughout Eurasia and in Africa. Natural fermentation of juices and fruits is damned near inevitable. The North American Indians had plenty of sugar=bearing yeast-attached fruits and berries, including the ancestors of several (labrsca grapes, pre-Loganberries) that are used today in commercial winemaking. So howcum they didn’t have wine? I asked a woman of Native American ancestry this today. She didn’t know. Pepper Mill opines that they just didn’t like the taste. But that doesn’t explain why _everyone_ avoided such alcohol. Out of many thousand years and a great many individuals, inevitably you;'d have a group of people stumble across wine who actually liked wine. But there is no tradition. As everyone points out, the Indians had a very low tolerance for alcohol, as it wasn’t in their culture. This isn’t a racist stereotype – I’ve heard it often enough from Amerindian historians and students of culture (with today being the latest example). I’ve come across cases from the 18th century and earlier in original documents, and written about two cases myself for a history journal. Alcohol was an unexpected problem for the North American Indians. But why? An unprejudiced observer would wonder why they hadn’t discovered alcohol long ago and used it themselves. Is it related to that very susceptibility to alcohol they had? Did groups who used alcohol perish because they succumbed to it too easily and essentially wiped themselves out? ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/2 "2007-08-06T00:09:12Z")
Maybe the effects of other drugs they did use were preferred. I would think an alcoholic haze would hinder hunting, and defense against raids. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/3 "2007-08-06T00:51:01Z")
[QUOTE=Harmonious Discord] I would think an alcoholic haze would hinder hunting, and defense against raids. [/QUOTE] I should think that would have occured in Europe and Asia as well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/4 "2007-08-06T01:33:37Z")
Is it true that native Americans had no alcohol? I always assumed they had naturally fermented drinks and it was the technology of distilling these drinks to a higher alcohol content that they missed. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/5 "2007-08-06T01:58:10Z")
Lack of domesticated animals (except the llama, dog & turkey) led to very small farms led to a limited supply of grains and other crops which led to people eating rather than fermenting them. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/6 "2007-08-06T02:17:07Z")
To elaborate on what **Paul in Saudi** said, plentiful alcohol pretty much requires a heavy agricultural society, not a hunter-gatherer society. It’s hard to brew booze when you’re packing up and moving every few weeks to follow the game animals. I did read a theory once that it was the discovery of alcohol that actually prompted early European/Asian society to move from hunter-gatherer to agricultural, and from there to city/state instead of tribal communities. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/7 "2007-08-06T02:29:18Z")
We did a thread once which identified the peoples around the globe who seemed to fail to come up with alcoholic beverages as part of their cuisine. Damned if I can find it now, though. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/8 "2007-08-06T02:43:46Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] It’s hard to brew booze when you’re packing up and moving every few weeks to follow the game animals. [/QUOTE] It’s also hard to produce grape juice that doesn’t turn to wine within a few days In the east, grapes were quite common, see [The Travels of William Bartram (c1790)](http://books.google.com/books?id=D71ZAgrsB3MC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=%22which+ramble+and+spread+themselves+over+the+shrubs+and+low+trees+in+these+situations%22&source=web&ots=2ck7uTJtFS&sig=sgXhqKgF2KN8cpfE5Gr17anZiMU#PPA208,M1). The natives made raisons, and juice, yet there’s no mention of wine? Either they boiled their juice, tossed it after a day, or had a natural supply of [Campden tablets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/9 "2007-08-06T02:49:19Z")
**Qadgop** , possibly this: [Was the wine in the Bible, Non-alcoholic?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=373835) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/10 "2007-08-06T02:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] But there is no tradition. As everyone points out, the Indians had a very low tolerance for alcohol, as it wasn’t in their culture. This isn’t a racist stereotype – I’ve heard it often enough from Amerindian historians and students of culture (with today being the latest example). I’ve come across cases from the 18th century and earlier in original documents, and written about two cases myself for a history journal. Alcohol was an unexpected problem for the North American Indians. [/QUOTE] It’s not on the site, but **Cecil** _did_ do a column about this many years ago, and according to him, the whole “Native Americans have a low tolerance for alcohol” is _bunk._ What happened, he said, is that the pale faces convinced the Native Americans that when you got drunk, you were _supposed_ to hoot and holler and fire off guns. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/11 "2007-08-06T03:18:27Z")
Isn’t there a whole list of things any given population didn’t come up with? And that list is spectacularly long for NA Indians, surely… As an aside I’m unclear that cultures which have mastered alcoholic beverages have a particularly high tolerance for them. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/12 "2007-08-06T03:47:14Z")
Use of yeast for bread would help too. Cross contamination with other food stuffs around bread yeasts could be a track to alcohol and cheese development. Any one of the products that use yeast, could be a vector for the other products. Sour Dough starter can be drunk for it’s alcoholic effect. This alcoholic liquid is hooch. In North America they didn’t develop the use of yeast for any of the products that use it. No wheat production in America, so no gluten rich cereals, that use yeast to rise, and contaminate the other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/13 "2007-08-06T04:00:41Z")
[QUOTE=Harmonious Discord] Use of yeast for bread would help too. Cross contamination with other food stuffs around bread yeasts could be a track to alcohol and cheese development. [/QUOTE] I think the other way around is more likely. Grapes, and apples, as well as some other fruits have yeasts that grow upon them naturally, and reusing a vessel in which cider, wine or beer have been made to mix a dough could easily provide the first raised bread. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/14 "2007-08-06T04:08:06Z")
I don’t believe that pre-Columbian Americans had grapes or apples. They’re old world fruits. The only native American crops which are commonly used for alcohol production are corn and potatoes and they’re both used in making distilled spirits. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/15 "2007-08-06T04:26:34Z")
Like I said “Any one of the products that use yeast, could be a vector for the other products.” It’s all a speculation. It could just be something catches on just because it’s fashionable and trendy. Neither one of those are a 21st century exclusive. The Europeans had LSD for a long time, known as the fungus Ergot. They didn’t know about the LSD, but it did change cultures. The fungus proliferates during cool damp summers, on grains used for making bread. The outbreak of werewolf persecutions in Germany is one of the things that may have occurred, because of ergot. The vampire and witch stories may also have a connection to ergot. Local conditions can be one factor in that something is noticed or not. The use of alcohol may depend on certain favorable conditions that North America didn’t have, or just bad timing so that the person recognizing what they had, died too soon to pass it on. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/16 "2007-08-06T04:38:01Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] They’re old world fruits. [/QUOTE] [Grapes span both worlds:](http://www.answers.com/topic/native-american-grapes) > [@](#): > > Grape varieties indigenous to the Americas. Four main species are related to wine production-vitis aestivalis, vitis labrusca, vitis riparia and vitis rotundifolia [Apples too:](http://www.worldandi.com/specialreport/1993/september/Sa11299.htm) > [@](#): > > Plant taxonomists may argue over the number of apples native to North America, but most agree that there are four major species. Three eastern species are very similar to one another and are quite distinct from the single western species. Based on similarities in morphology, the western species is believed to be most closely related to apples native to China. In contrast, the three eastern species probably have affinities with apples from the Middle East and are thought to have split off early in the evolution of the genus Malus. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/17 "2007-08-06T04:38:10Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I don’t believe that pre-Columbian Americans had grapes or apples. They’re old world fruits. The only native American crops which are commonly used for alcohol production are corn and potatoes and they’re both used in making distilled spirits. [/QUOTE] Apples aren’t native, but [grapes](http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/natives.asp) are. ETA: Bah. Beaten to the punch and with better information, too! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/18 "2007-08-06T04:39:28Z")
Wouldn’t having less tolerance for alcohol make them less likely to be alcoholics, though? I remember from abnormal psychology that usually, the more tolerant one is, the more alcohol it takes to create an effect…so that people who were more tolerant were more likely to develop a dependency on alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/19 "2007-08-06T04:40:46Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I don’t believe that pre-Columbian Americans had grapes or apples. They’re old world fruits. The only native American crops which are commonly used for alcohol production are corn and potatoes and they’re both used in making distilled spirits. [/QUOTE] They had grapes, in some areas. They also had honey for mead. And many other berries will ferment. You can make beer from just about any grain. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553/20 "2007-08-06T05:27:32Z")
Is it because they were a Stone-Age culture? When did wine-making occur in the Old World - Bronze Age? I find the OP pretty interesting, and hope someone comes in with a Pretty Good Answer. [Somebody please tell me how to add the small “TM”.] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-north-american-indians-develop-alcoholic-beverages/414553.md?page=2)