# Why didn't the Ancient Greeks ride Bicycles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270 "2013-10-03T16:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dax-ion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dec6dc/32.png) [@Dax-ion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dax-ion)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/1 "2013-10-03T16:12:16Z")
This tortures me… I don’t see any conceptual, scientific, or engineering issues that prevented the Ancient Greeks (or Ancient Chinese or later the Arab scientists) from building cameras, phonographs, or bicycles. Has anyone proposed an argument for why these people didn’t have these things other than that they didn’t want them? The original forms of each of these inventions were made from simple household materials and required no fancy engineering or concepts or understandings of physics that did not exist two or three or thousand years ago I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/2 "2013-10-03T16:58:00Z")
They also missed out, narrowly, on the idea of steam travel as the had come up with the idea of a [railway](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diolkos) and a [steam engine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile) but never thought to combine the two. On the bicycle idea…well, there are a few problems that spring immediately to mind. No rubber means tyres as we know them are out, which would be a big problem in the rugged terrain of Greece. You definitely need a mountain bike to get around on the rough tracks. Metallurgy of the time would have trouble - although chains were known to the Greeks to collect water from wells, bicycle chains are pretty intricate and made of alloy steel. The light tubing for the frame would also be a problem. No reason to replace the horse with this contraption. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/3 "2013-10-03T17:11:04Z")
Speculation: I think, when you’re in a society without bicycles, windmills, pedal-driven screw-based helicopters or perpetual-motion machines, and without knowledge of physics, it’s difficult to judge which of these objects are possible and which aren’t. Imagine showing to an ancient Greek descriptions of a bicycle and of a perpetual-motion water wheel. “You say I’m supposed to use my feet to make the wheels turn, while remaining in equilibrium like some sort of acrobat, and that I will get some useful benefit over simply walking? That makes no sense. Let’s build the water wheel instead, so we can run the flour mill forever.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/4 "2013-10-03T17:12:04Z")
Manly because none of them happened to think of such a device. And why should they? Without experience of such things, it is by no means obvious that something like a bicycle would work. If an idea for one ever crossed the mind of an ancient Greek, they probably would have instantly rejected it as something that would obviously be liable to fall over almost immediately (science does not, I believe, have a very good grasp of why bicycles don’t fall over almost immediately, even now). Furthermore, they lacked widely available smooth road surfaces. That might not be too much of a problem for a modern mountain bike, but it really would not have been practical to use some of the early forms of bike (out of which modern designs emerged by a long, slow process of refinement), such as the [velocipede](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boneshaker_%28bicycle%29), the [boneshaker](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boneshaker_%28bicycle%29#Boneshaker), or the penny farthing without pretty good roads. (As the name suggests, the boneshaker gave you a very uncomfortable, bumpy ride, even on a good road.) Plus what **Mr. Kobayashi** said about available materials, manufacturing techniques, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/5 "2013-10-03T17:27:44Z")
Let’s say they had the general idea. With the technology of the time a bike would be very crude compared to today’s models and would need very smooth roads. Smoothly paved roads are very expensive, you don’t do it without a good reason. Even in the US there were very few smooth roads until a very good reason came along - the automobile. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/6 "2013-10-03T17:29:05Z")
Some things are invented the moment some other supporting technology makes them possible, but in most cases, we can always ask “why wasn’t it invented earlier?” - and the answer is more or less simply: “Because it wasn’t”. That’s not very satisfying, but it’s the truth - in order for something to be invented, someone has to think of the idea and implement it - and although it may seem like an obvious idea in hindsight, it’s not so obvious in advance. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/7 "2013-10-03T17:32:41Z")
You’d need machine tools to make a decent bike wheel. No chain if you make a hi-wheeler, but still need spokes and a rim. ---
**Author:** ![Iamnotivan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamnotivan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamnotivan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/8 "2013-10-03T17:34:40Z")
Why didn’t Mexicans develop wheels for transport? The reason the road system in Mexico has been so under-developed is that for centuries (up to even 100) they only had narrow foot trails for travel and commerce which were 1 mule wide. The Native Americans also seem to have failed to think of developing such a wild thing as a wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/9 "2013-10-03T17:37:29Z")
> [@Iamnotivan](#): > > Why didn’t Mexicans develop wheels for transport? The reason the road system in Mexico has been so under-developed is that for centuries (up to even 100) they only had narrow foot trails for travel and commerce which were 1 mule wide. The Native Americans also seem to have failed to think of developing such a wild thing as a wheel. IIRC, they did have wheels on small toys. For some reason, they didn’t make the leap to bigger conveyances. EDIT: I think you mean Aztecs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/10 "2013-10-03T17:38:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Mr. Kobayashi** : > > They also missed out, narrowly, on the idea of steam travel as the had come up with the idea of a railway and a steam engine but never thought to combine the two. They never really had a steam engine. Oh, Hero had his little toy, but you can’t do anything practical with one of those, and there’s really no path from that to something that is practical. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/11 "2013-10-03T17:45:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They never really had a steam engine. Oh, Hero had his little toy, but you can’t do anything practical with one of those, and there’s really no path from that to something that is practical. Well it rotated so I suppose it could be coupled to a crude transmission to do light work. The real problem is the lack of a boiler to allow the higher pressures you need to actuslly accomplish the heavy lifting, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/12 "2013-10-03T17:46:06Z")
> [@Iamnotivan](#): > > Why didn’t Mexicans develop wheels for transport? The reason the road system in Mexico has been so under-developed is that for centuries (up to even 100) they only had narrow foot trails for travel and commerce which were 1 mule wide. The Native Americans also seem to have failed to think of developing such a wild thing as a wheel. No draft animals. Until the Europeans brought horses, the only options for pulling carts were dogs and turkeys. (At least that’s what Jared Diamond says in _Guns, Germs, and Steel_.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/13 "2013-10-03T17:48:34Z")
> [@Iamnotivan](#): > > Why didn’t Mexicans develop wheels for transport? The reason the road system in Mexico has been so under-developed is that for centuries (up to even 100) they only had narrow foot trails for travel and commerce which were 1 mule wide. The Native Americans also seem to have failed to think of developing such a wild thing as a wheel. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > IIRC, they did have wheels on small toys. For some reason, they didn’t make the leap to bigger conveyances. > > EDIT: I think you mean Aztecs. And even then, there have been carts around Mexico for almost five centuries. Blaming the lack of road development on the Aztecs beats the heck out of the custom of blaming any troubles the current government has on the previous one… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/14 "2013-10-03T17:50:03Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No draft animals. Until the Europeans brought horses, the only options for pulling carts were dogs and turkeys. And llamas. But llamas, while sorta adequate pack animals, aren’t really great draft animals. They can pull a light cart, but not much beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/15 "2013-10-03T17:53:06Z")
^^^ yeah, Diamond says llamas are basically useless for carts, though they can be loaded individually and taken over rough trails. So there was never any reason to make roads or better carts until the horse arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/16 "2013-10-03T17:59:28Z")
People could pull the carts. Rickshaws and such could have been developed if they’d had a mind to. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/17 "2013-10-03T18:02:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > People could pull the carts. Rickshaws and such could have been developed if they’d had a mind to. “Well then why didn’t they?” is the question yet to be answered, yes? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/18 "2013-10-03T18:05:59Z")
The romans were close-the "Pleasure barges"of Lake Nemi (built by Nero) had chain-driven bucket bailing machines to pump the bilges. And the first bicycle (the “Draisienne”)had no chain drive-the rider pushed himself along with his feet. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/19 "2013-10-03T18:06:29Z")
There’s a column by **Cecil** on the wheel and Central Americans. He indicates that the wheel may only have been invented once, in the Middle East, and then gradually spread. So although it now seems obvious, it may not have been; it may only have been one prehistoric genius who had the idea. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270/20 "2013-10-03T18:07:45Z")
Why didn’t the people of 2013 have portable holographic computers when the technology to build a crude one was already available? Why were the people of 2013 still messing around with cancer when they could have just used a combination of existing chemicals to prevent it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-ancient-greeks-ride-bicycles/670270.md?page=2)