# Why didn't the British have a semi-automatic rifle during World War II. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640 "2008-08-02T22:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/1 "2008-08-02T22:46:03Z")
I’ve been playing Call of Duty 2 lately (a great game, by the way) and it has left me wondering something. Why is it that the British never developed a semi-automatic rifle during World War II? The M1 Garand, of course, was the standard armament for the American soldier. The Germans mostly used the Mauser bolt-action but they also had the Gewehr 43, which was a semi-auto. The Russians likewise had the SVT40, a similar rifle, though their standard troops used the Mosin Nagant. But the British chiefly used the Enfield bolt action rifle, and never developed a semi-automatic infantry rifle during the war as all the other countries did. Why is this? **Martini Enfield** might know. ---
**Author:** ![d0nk3y](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@d0nk3y](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d0nk3y)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/2 "2008-08-02T23:00:12Z")
A couple reasons.. > [@](#): > > In the early 1930s the British Government was interesting in selecting a new rifle and cartridge to replace the .303 Lee Enfield which had been in service since the late 19th Century. In the same period, the US Army was also considering a new rifle and cartridge, with the .276 Pedersen the front-runner. The British decided to take advantage of this and set up a production line for the ammunition with a view to adopting it in due course. They acquired some Pedersen rifles and tested them. > > In the event, John Garand produced a rifle which was selected instead of the Pedersen, and the US Army decided, for both financial and performance reasons, to retain the .30-06 cartridge, requiring a redesign of the Garand before it was finally adopted in .30-06 calibre. The British lost interest in the .276 Pedersen and stayed with their .303 weapons until the mid-1950s. [http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/White.htm](http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/White.htm) > [@](#): > > The British Army tested the M1 Garand as a possible replacement for its bolt-action Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk III, but rejected it after trials to simulate combat conditions. > **[M1 Garand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand)** > > The M1 Garand or M1 rifle\[nb 1\] is a semi-automatic rifle that was the service rifle of the U.S. Army during World War II and the Korean War. > The rifle is chambered for the .30-06 Springfield cartridge and is named after its Canadian-American designer, John Garand. It was the first standard-issue autoloading rifle for the United States. By most accounts, the M1 rifle performed well. General George S. Patton called it "the greatest battle implement ever devised". The M1 replaced the (bolt-acti... Apparently, they did use the M1 Carbine though: > **[M1 carbine | Users](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine#Users)** > > The unit data provided below refers to original U.S. Ordnance contract carbines the United States provided these countries. Many countries sold, traded, destroyed, and/or donated these carbines to other countries and/or private gun brokers. > 1. Brazil: In service with BOPE. | > 2. Indonesia: Used by Indonesian Armed Forces in 1950s and 1960s (received from the United States). Fielded during the Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation Still in service in the Indonesian National Police 1. Afghan Mujahideen... ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/3 "2008-08-02T23:30:44Z")
One of the reasons I’ve heard was that the British generals were afraid their men would burn through their ammo too rapidly if they switched to a semi-auto. Besides, the SMLE was good enough for the last war, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/4 "2008-08-02T23:34:18Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] One of the reasons I’ve heard was that the British generals were afraid their men would burn through their ammo too rapidly if they switched to a semi-auto. Besides, the SMLE was good enough for the last war, etc. [/QUOTE] I understand the SMLE had a pretty good rate of fire. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/5 "2008-08-02T23:50:49Z")
Oh, it does. I can rip through a loading in a couple of seconds. But British generals were real big on tradition and all that. Aimed fire was what won battles, not the spray and pray that semi-auto would bring on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/6 "2008-08-02T23:51:14Z")
In Call of Duty 2, anyway, I think it’s a pretty slow and shitty rifle and I don’t like the sights. But that’s just a game. I’ve never actually fired one in real life - I might like it. [AIM Surplus](http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/British_Enfield_No.4_Mk1_.303Brit_Rifles.html) just got a bunch of Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1s in - now that I have my C&R maybe I’ll go for it. They also offer an [Ishapore Enfield](http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html) made in India. It’s in .308 instead of .303. But something about its appearance somehow looks “off.” Am I alone in thinking that? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/7 "2008-08-02T23:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] [AIM Surplus](http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/British_Enfield_No.4_Mk1_.303Brit_Rifles.html) just got a bunch of Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1s in [/QUOTE] I have one of those. Got it years ago. Haven’t gotten round to firing it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/8 "2008-08-03T00:02:58Z")
Well, come on now, surely the rounds aren’t _that_ hard to come by. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/9 "2008-08-03T00:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well, come on now, surely the rounds aren’t _that_ hard to come by. 😃 [/QUOTE] Oh, I have a box or two of ammo. I just haven’t used it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/10 "2008-08-03T00:07:47Z")
It was a joke. “Haven’t gotten round to firing it yet.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/11 "2008-08-03T00:17:15Z")
:smack: ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/12 "2008-08-03T00:48:03Z")
I have both a Mark III SMLE and a No.4. Quite fun to shoot, and if you buy the ammo in bulk, surplus, not that expensive. Have I mentioned that the No. 4 is cherry? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/13 "2008-08-03T13:40:52Z")
Between the wars, the Brits played at developing a new rifle and a new cartridge. The other nations did as well. When hostilities broke out , only the US had gone as far as adopting an autoloader…and the Garand was in short supply still when we entered the fray a couple years later. For the other countries, it made much more sense to continue using the rifle for which they had tooling, ammunition, and training than it did to try to switch to something new in the middle of a war. Introducing new weapon is always a painful process as bugs are detected that didn’t reveal themselves during field trials. A war for your nation’s very survival isn’t a good place to be ironing out the kinks in a new weapon design when you have a proven weapon in use that is adequate to the task. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/14 "2008-08-03T15:57:03Z")
As a referent to **Scumpup** ’s post, look up: M-16, Problems with. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/15 "2008-08-03T17:17:35Z")
We didn’t need a new rifle, we had Vera Lynn and George Formby. Not exactly secret weapons but more than enough to frighten even the most stout hearted Nazi ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/16 "2008-08-03T17:20:14Z")
You _still_ have Vera Lynn! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/17 "2008-08-03T17:22:07Z")
It sounds like y’all know your weapons. So I’d ask, why isn’t the Sten considred a semi-automatic rifle? Barrel length? Pistol-type ammo? I read semi-automatic and my brain sort of drifts to “assault weapon.” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/18 "2008-08-03T17:43:18Z")
Because the Sten is not semi-automatic? I believe it is select-fire, but an automatic setting kind of takes precedence in naming. I read semi-automatic and my brain sort of drifts to “the standard firearm for civilians.” **Argent Towers** , I have a 2A. I haven’t gotten around to firing it yet. It’s pretty much the same thing as a Mk III except the caliber. A lot of the metal is coated with black paint, is that what makes it look off to you? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/19 "2008-08-03T18:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=MonkeyMensch] It sounds like y’all know your weapons. So I’d ask, why isn’t the Sten considred a semi-automatic rifle? Barrel length? Pistol-type ammo? I read semi-automatic and my brain sort of drifts to “assault weapon.” [/QUOTE] Pistol ammo (9mm) makes it a submachine gun. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640/20 "2008-08-03T20:37:46Z")
From reading _Quartered Safe Out Here_, by the recently-late George MacDonald Fraser, there was a strong Army tradition of putting aimed shots where they were wanted, not just popping caps. Posed less of a logistical problem too, obviously. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-british-have-a-semi-automatic-rifle-during-world-war-ii/458640.md?page=2)