# Why didn't the Dems let the tax cuts expire and then introduce a new tax cut bill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391 "2010-12-08T08:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/21 "2010-12-08T23:35:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think Obama is doing the right thing and setting up the Pubs to either have to work with him and the Dems or to be put in the spot light as being completely obstructionists. Of course, this move will cause Obama’s base to eat him alive, so perhaps it will be a wash for him. For an even rosier perspective, Andrew Sullivan thinks [Obama suckered the Republicans](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/12/obama-president-mcconnell-sucker.html): > [@](#): > > This is the difference between tactics and strategy. The GOP has won again on tactics, but keeps losing on strategy. More broadly, as this sinks in, Obama’s ownership of this deal will help restore the sense that he is in command of events, and has shifted to the center (even though he is steadily advancing center-left goals)…The more his liberal base attacks him, the more the center will take a second look. Not only that, but Andrew Leonard at [salon.com](http://salon.com) makes the case that [the deal would only get worse if not passed now](http://www.salon.com/news/taxes/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2010/12/08/why_the_tax_cut_deal_rebellion_will_fail). ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/22 "2010-12-08T23:53:43Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Politically, how would it have worked out if the Dems let the Bush tax cuts expire, and then promptly introduced a bill with tax cuts similar to the Bush ones, but that exclude the top 2% of Americans? > > I assume the Republicans would block the new bill. But wouldn’t that be disastrous for them, since they would be blocking a bill that would provide needed tax cuts to 98% of Americans? > > How would the Republicans spin this so that they can both block the bill and come out ahead in public opinion? Pssst… have you been in a coma since the first week of November? Come January, the Republicans are running the show in the House where tax bills originate. If they didn’t introduce a bill first… they’d do it seconds later… and it would be the one taken up. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/23 "2010-12-09T03:06:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, next year a person making above $250k would pay more in taxes than he did this year, but in your view, that is a tax cut? Well since if they did nothing the taxes would revert back to where they were, it is not honest to call that a tax \*hike \*while at the same time saying you support a tax _cut_. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/24 "2010-12-09T03:13:33Z")
If it makes sense for you to call it a tax raise, go ahead. The deficit will cripple us if we don’t work on it. Letting the stupid Bush tax cuts expire like they were supposed to is fine. It will chop the deficit by 25 percent . In republican land that must be bad ,but it is not in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/25 "2010-12-10T03:16:31Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Politically, how would it have worked out if the Dems let the Bush tax cuts expire, and then promptly introduced a bill with tax cuts similar to the Bush ones, but that exclude the top 2% of Americans? > > I assume the Republicans would block the new bill. But wouldn’t that be disastrous for them, since they would be blocking a bill that would provide needed tax cuts to 98% of Americans? > > How would the Republicans spin this so that they can both block the bill and come out ahead in public opinion? This already happened. It got filibustered twice in the senate 57 to 36. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/26 "2010-12-10T23:25:44Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Well since if they did nothing the taxes would revert back to where they were, it is not honest to call that a tax \*hike \*while at the same time saying you support a tax _cut_. Why is doing nothing the default position? Everyone knows that the Bush tax cuts are set to expire. It’s purely playing word games, and possibly dishonest, to tell a person that their taxes will increase next year, but that they are receiving a tax cut. That is some serious wordspeak straight out of 1984. If we need to raise taxes on the rich to reduce the deficit, then let’s be honest like **gonzomax** is being. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/27 "2010-12-10T23:32:24Z")
Yeah, 'cause that $70 billion or so a year we’ll get from letting the tax cut on the ‘rich’ is going to make all the difference to the deficit. 😛 But we wouldn’t want to play any word games or make any dishonest implications, right? I will freely admit, however, that gonzo honestly believes that having the tax cuts on the ‘rich’ will solve all our woes and make everything right with the universe. The trouble isn’t his belief… -XT ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/28 "2010-12-10T23:57:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah, 'cause that $70 billion or so a year we’ll get from letting the tax cut on the ‘rich’ is going to make all the difference to the deficit. 😛 But we wouldn’t want to play any word games or make any dishonest implications, right? > > I will freely admit, however, that gonzo honestly believes that having the tax cuts on the ‘rich’ will solve all our woes and make everything right with the universe. The trouble isn’t his belief… > > -XT No, but it would ACTUALLY cut $70 billion from the deficit. At least gonzomax is making an honest statement instead of telling a man who makes $300k/yr that he is getting a tax cut when his bill goes up next year. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t agree with any increase in taxes, especially right now, but the argument that “even the rich get a tax cut” seemed especially atrocious to me. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/29 "2010-12-11T17:15:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah, 'cause that $70 billion or so a year we’ll get from letting the tax cut on the ‘rich’ is going to make all the difference to the deficit. 😛 But we wouldn’t want to play any word games or make any dishonest implications, right? > > I will freely admit, however, that gonzo honestly believes that having the tax cuts on the ‘rich’ will solve all our woes and make everything right with the universe. The trouble isn’t his belief… > > -XT I will speak for myself. I did not say that. Have someone who can read explain to you letting the Bush tax cut die will cut the deficit by 25 percent and explain to them how that means I said that will solve everything. How dishonest can you be? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/30 "2010-12-11T19:20:12Z")
We are just beginning with our problems. Employment will not recover. it will get worse and worse. I don’t have answers, because the really rich make the decisions. Cisco plowed 5 billion dollars into Chinese plants. The head of Cisco say" we are in the process of becoming a Chinese corporation". That is cutting edge technology and very desirable positions for educated people. IT, programming, everything involved in new technology gone from our shores. Jack Welsh, when he was head of GE, said "Ideally , you want every plant on a large barge. Then you could throw the workers overboard and head for cheaper workers at a minutes notice. ’ The jobs are not coming back and more and more complex ones will go with them. If you love your job and your company, you better expect that it is one sided. [Columbia Journalism Review](http://www.cjr.org/resources/?c=ge) This is who GE is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/31 "2010-12-11T20:59:54Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Have someone who can read explain to you letting the Bush tax cut die will cut the deficit by 25 percent and explain to them how that means I said that will solve everything. How dishonest can you be? [/QUOTE] You just accused me of being unable to read, and now you say I’m dishonest as well? So…I’m ignorant, can’t read AND a liar? _checks forum_ Ah…to be sure. Do you have a cite to back up your assertion that letting the Bush tax cuts run out on only the ‘rich’ is going to cut the deficit by 25%? Possibly one using small words so I can try and track it? Because, frankly, that sounds like complete fantasy to me. So…feel free to back up your assertions with a credible cite. [QUOTE=jtgain] No, but it would ACTUALLY cut $70 billion from the deficit. At least gonzomax is making an honest statement instead of telling a man who makes $300k/yr that he is getting a tax cut when his bill goes up next year. [/QUOTE] It MIGHT increase revenue by $70 billion…that’s a hell of a lot different than for sure cutting $70 billion from the deficit. Of course, gonzomax’s ‘honest’ statement is that it’s going to cut ‘25%’ from the deficit…something he asserts but has yet to back up. On the surface, it seems ridiculous that we would get that much money out of people making $250k/year…it would be literally hundreds of billions of dollars needed to do that (the deficit for 2010 is over a trillion dollars…25 percent would mean that we’d be getting in excess of $250 BILLION dollars a year out of a few percentage points difference in only the folks paying taxes on income over $250k/year…does that seem reasonable to you?). > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I don’t agree with any increase in taxes, especially right now, but the argument that “even the rich get a tax cut” seemed especially atrocious to me. Actually, the irony here is that I DO believe in a tax hike. I think the Bush tax cuts should be completely allowed to go away, and EVERYONE should pay more. Even with that I seriously doubt we are going to get gonzomax’s ‘25%’ decrease in the deficit, but it would be something…especially if we also cut government spending. What I object to is this left wing targeting of JUST the ‘rich’ for tax increases…especially when they moan about how this will cut the deficit while tossing in yet another large spending increase in the extension of unemployment benefits. That alone will eat up all of the extra money we get from simply allowing the taxes on the ‘rich’ to expire…and then some. I’m not saying I’m against those extension, mind, just that it’s fairly hypocritical. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/32 "2010-12-12T00:18:57Z")
When you lie ,you lie. I said letting the Bush Tax bill expire would result in a 25 to 30 percent reduction in the deficit.I did not say anything about just the Rich. have someone read post 24 to you. Then I suppose they will have to explain it to you too. Letting the Bush Tax cut expire like they were supposed to. it that really that hard for you? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/33 "2010-12-12T01:51:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When you lie ,you lie. And when you violate forum rules, you are subject to a Warning. Knock it off or you will be Warned. That said, **xtisme** , he is correct that you changed the discussion regarding which tax cuts he was discussing by conflating his actual statement with **jtgain** ’s interpretation of his intent. Both of you be more careful in responding to other posts or making assumptions that errors are the result of malice instead of faulty reading. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/34 "2010-12-12T04:58:54Z")
Actually I felt bad about that exchange. It was classless and should not have been done. sorry. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/35 "2010-12-12T06:19:43Z")
Well Tom, gonzo, my appologies. Perhaps I do have some reading issues. I thought gonzo was talking strictly about the tax cut to the ‘rich’ but going back I see I may have been mistaken. I’d still like to see a cite to back up the assertions made, as they seem a bit far fetched, but I apologize for misunderhearing and not paying proper attention. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/36 "2010-12-14T06:05:26Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/03/business/economy/03leonhardt.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/03/business/economy/03leonhardt.html) I have read several article talking about the impact of letting the Bush Cuts expire. This one says in 10 years, the cuts could make us half way to a deficit economists think is sustainable. Half, just by letting them die. Then with spending cuts like stopping the Bush wars , we would be back in the surplus we had before Bush. A tax raise for 10 years would also get us back faster. We need to do it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/37 "2010-12-14T06:19:04Z")
[http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/08/deficit-hawks-would-let-the-bush-tax-cuts-expire.html](http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/08/deficit-hawks-would-let-the-bush-tax-cuts-expire.html) And here is an article claiming letting the tax cuts expire would drop the deficits 25 percent quickly. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/38 "2010-12-14T07:47:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why would the Republicans cooperate on this, since they don’t believe it’s a good idea ( **mostly because the price tag dwarfs the revenue we would supposedly get back by having the tax cuts expire** )? > > -XT You have a cite for that? I’m pretty sure that extending the unemployment benefits for a year costs about the same amount of money we’d get by simply letting just the $250K+ cuts expire, and is much smaller than what we’d take in if we let them all sunset. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/39 "2010-12-14T15:32:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As I said, I’m sure the Dems would try to spin it this way. Unfortunately the facts would be that the Dems allowed them to expire over the objections of the Republicans, and then tried to backdoor the process by doing an end around to get their way. This would be pretty obviously an instance of the Dems playing naked politics by thwarting the opposing party and forcing them to do what the Dems want without concession or negotiation. I seriously doubt this would play well for the Dems. YMMV, and maybe your simple diagram would win the day and turn public opinion against the Pubs on this…but I doubt it. > > -XT You kbnow there were TWO votes to extend tax cuts for those making under $250K and for those making under $1 million and the Republicans voted them bgoth down. Why would you blame the Democrats for the failure of those making under $1 million from getting an extension of their tax cuts? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391/40 "2010-12-14T15:36:24Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Why didn’t the Dems let the tax cuts expire and then introduce a new tax cut bill? Because the Democrats are pansies [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-dems-let-the-tax-cuts-expire-and-then-introduce-a-new-tax-cut-bill/563391.md?page=3)