# Why didn't the LOTR movies explain Gandalf's backstory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 25, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147 "2014-12-25T08:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/1 "2014-12-25T08:55:09Z")
I have never read the trilogy so I don’t know how well Gandalf and Saruman were explained therein, but in the film trilogy viewers get no real sense that these characters are not human and immortal and essentially “angels” working for the god of the universe. And Sauron as a “fallen angel”. Even when Gandalf returns from certain death I don’t think it is really explained, it just happens. I’ve talked to several film only viewers and they just pegged them as wizards, and Sauron as just your average evil overlord. I just find it kind of essential info for even understanding what is going on, but granted it would ruin the cliffhanger of FOTR and Gandalf reappearing in TTT. EDIT:It also explains some odd things in the film if you know Gandalf can’t directly intervene but only guide the mortals to victory. ---
**Author:** ![Inna\_Minnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Inna\_Minnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inna_Minnit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/2 "2014-12-25T09:20:14Z")
I haven’t read the Trilogy for a while, so I may be wrong, but I don’t think the books really explain it either. I think the back stories come from another Tolkien work called The Simarillion. But I have not read it. > **[The Silmarillion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion)** > > The Silmarillion (Quenya: \[silmaˈrilliɔn\]) is a collection of myths\[T 1\] and stories in varying styles by the English writer J. R. R. Tolkien. It was edited and published posthumously by his son Christopher Tolkien in 1977, assisted by the fantasy author Guy Gavriel Kay.\[T 2\] It tells of Eä, a fictional universe that includes the Blessed Realm of Valinor, the once-great region of Beleriand, the sunken island of Númenor, and the continent of Middle-earth, where Tolkien's most popular works—Th... ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/3 "2014-12-25T11:17:30Z")
They’re wizards. That’s all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/4 "2014-12-25T11:30:40Z")
The filmmakers own the rights to the information in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_ and nothing else. They can’t use information from _The Silmarillion_. The Tolkien Estate owns that and isn’t allowing the filmmakers to use it or any other Tolkien work that the filmmakers don’t own. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/5 "2014-12-25T13:04:40Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The filmmakers own the rights to the information in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_ and nothing else. They can’t use information from _The Silmarillion_. The Tolkien Estate owns that and isn’t allowing the filmmakers to use it or any other Tolkien work that the filmmakers don’t own. Good! 🙂 Gandalf does make some vague references to his past. When Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet up with him in the Old Forest, he says “Olorin I was in the West that is no more.” Certainly Aragorn knew his nature, probably Legolas too. And it’s probably clear to anyone who spends time with him that he and his fellow Wizards have been in Middle Earth for hundreds/thousands (about 2000) of years. But yeah, take the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and the HoME series out of the picture, and little else is “known” to the reader. And it wouldn’t have helped move PJ’s very loose adaptation along. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/6 "2014-12-25T13:15:48Z")
> [@grude](#): > > EDIT:It also explains some odd things in the film if you know Gandalf can’t directly intervene but only guide the mortals to victory. You mean the incident with the dragon? He was hardly involved… ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/7 "2014-12-25T14:27:29Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The filmmakers own the rights to the information in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_ and nothing else. They can’t use information from _The Silmarillion_. The Tolkien Estate owns that and isn’t allowing the filmmakers to use it or any other Tolkien work that the filmmakers don’t own. I thought the scene where Thorin first meets Gandalf in Bree and Gandalf convinces Thorin to take a burglar into the party came from Unfinished Tales? (It’s on the first Hobbit Extended Edition dvd). I know the White Council wasn’t in the Hobbit either but my memory of this particular source material is very hazy, and I can’t remember right now whether it came from the LOTR appendices or UT. In any case I am pretty sure in the LOTR books it was clear that Gandalf and the other wizards weren’t mortal. Why PJ didn’t spell it out? Maybe because a lot of people would be confused by the concept of an insanely powerful being who wasn’t allowed to use that power. It’s the Eagles all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/8 "2014-12-25T14:43:24Z")
It’s funny because I didn’t know any of that stuff until I saw this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxgsxaFWWHQ) a few days ago. My guess is making them just powerful wizards is the safer bet with the public. Especially considering how risky it was releasing the original Lord of The Rings films were. They were expensive, long and Fantasy had almost always failed at the box office. Especially fantasy not aimed at children. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/9 "2014-12-25T15:28:01Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > I thought the scene where Thorin first meets Gandalf in Bree and Gandalf convinces Thorin to take a burglar into the party came from Unfinished Tales? (It’s on the first Hobbit Extended Edition dvd). I know the White Council wasn’t in the Hobbit either but my memory of this particular source material is very hazy, and I can’t remember right now whether it came from the LOTR appendices or UT. It’s in the appendices to LotR. @Coriolanus: This, again, is Jackson lifting dialogue from a completely different place in the story, and out of another mouth. In the book, Frodo and Faramir are discussing the Grey Pilgrim, and Faramir explains that he has many names; that’s where Gandalf is quoted as saying “Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten”. But what either Aragorn or Legolas know about him is unclear - he is not given to telling many tales of where he came from or what he is. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/10 "2014-12-25T15:28:23Z")
_Unfinished Tales_ is another book that the Tolkien Estate won’t allow the filmmakers to use. Incidentally, when I say that the filmmakers can use information in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_, I mean that they have movie and TV rights to these books only. Nothing of Tolkien’s can be made into a movie or TV show except material from those two books. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/11 "2014-12-25T17:14:35Z")
Ultimately, you need to piece things together, and no single source (aside from _Unfinished Tales_) comes out and says anything outright. But we know from the trilogy that Gandalf was once known as “Olorin”. Then, the Silmarillion tells its tale of the Olden Days, two full Ages and more before the events of the trilogy: At that time, the angelic beings were more directly active and take a larger part in the story. We’re told of two orders of beings: The Valar, the dozen or so most powerful of the angelic beings who entered into Creation, and the Maiar, their assistants. In talking about the Maiar, it says that the wisest among them was Olorin. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/12 "2014-12-25T18:11:37Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > They’re wizards. That’s all you need to know. Except that Tolkien wrote long before Harry Potter came along and made everyone think of “wizards” as human beings who had studied the craft of magic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/13 "2014-12-25T19:01:09Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > I thought the scene where Thorin first meets Gandalf in Bree and Gandalf convinces Thorin to take a burglar into the party came from Unfinished Tales? (It’s on the first Hobbit Extended Edition dvd). I know the White Council wasn’t in the Hobbit either but my memory of this particular source material is very hazy, and I can’t remember right now whether it came from the LOTR appendices or UT. > [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > It’s in the appendices to LotR. Doesn’t the appendix of _LotR_ also have more detail about Gandalf and the wizards? That is, more than in the body of the book or shown in the PJ’s movie. The reason I say that is that I’ve never read _The_ _Silmarillion_ or other Tolkien books, and I know more about wizards than what was in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/14 "2014-12-25T19:22:53Z")
I always liked this passage (from Pippin’s point of view): > [@](#): > > Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it? And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other’s mind. But it was Denethor who first withdrew his gaze. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/15 "2014-12-25T19:46:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Except that Tolkien wrote long before Harry Potter came along and made everyone think of “wizards” as human beings who had studied the craft of magic. I’m just going to assume that’s sarcasm… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/16 "2014-12-25T20:41:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Doesn’t the appendix of _LotR_ also have more detail about Gandalf and the wizards? Not _that_ much. Here’s what the Appendices say about 'em: > [@](#): > > When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen > on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It > was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers > sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will > to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to > seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. > > ``` > They came therefore in the shape of Men. though they were never young > > ``` > > and aged only slowly. and they had many powers of mind and hand. They > revealed their true names to few, but used such names as were given to them. > The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were > called by the Eldar Curunír, ‘the Man of Skill’, and Mithrandir, ‘the Grey > Pilgrim’. but by Men in the North Saruman and Gandalf. Curunír journeyed > often into the East, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest > in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West, and never > made for himself any lasting abode. That’s about it for the description of their origins. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/17 "2014-12-25T23:05:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The filmmakers own the rights to the information in _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_ and nothing else. They can’t use information from _The Silmarillion_. The Tolkien Estate owns that and isn’t allowing the filmmakers to use it or any other Tolkien work that the filmmakers don’t own. I wasn’t aware of that. I remember wondering exactly why the ring was so powerful, and what the characters even human characters wanted it for, claiming they could end the war with it. So I went online and looked it up, and also found the info on Gandalf and I was like wow this adds a whole new layer to the story you don’t even get in the films. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/18 "2014-12-25T23:06:17Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Except that Tolkien wrote long before Harry Potter came along and made everyone think of “wizards” as human beings who had studied the craft of magic. I think that’s what wizards usually are in most tales that have wizards. Exposition about what Tolkien wizards really are would be a distraction that would take people out of the movie. Better to be mysterious and let the curious find out for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/19 "2014-12-25T23:08:05Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > You mean the incident with the dragon? He was hardly involved… And why in the LOTR movies if he is such a badass powerful wizard who can even come back from the dead, why is he wasting his time womping orcs with his staff when he could be doing firestorm lvl 9 and roasting every orc in a half mile radius. Like someone said it is the eagle issue all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147/20 "2014-12-25T23:37:08Z")
> [@grude](#): > > And why in the LOTR movies if he is such a badass powerful wizard who can even come back from the dead, why is he wasting his time womping orcs with his staff when he could be doing firestorm lvl 9 and roasting every orc in a half mile radius. As I said in post # 16 above, > [@](#): > > they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-lotr-movies-explain-gandalfs-backstory/708147.md?page=2)