# Why didn't the phone companies sue Steve Jobs for hacking their system with his Blue Box? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 1, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861 "2016-01-01T00:09:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/1 "2016-01-01T00:09:00Z")
Hi, Why didn’t the phone companies (AT&T , Bell Labs etc) sue Steve Jobs and Wozniak for financial damages caused b their Blue Box? What he and Wozniak did was illegal. I’d be interested to know how much money his Blue Box cost the phone industry? I look forward to your feedback. > **[Steve Jobs' First Business was Selling Blue Boxes that Allowed Users to Get...](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/10/steve-jobs-first-business-was-selling-blue-boxes-that-allowed-users-to-get-free-phone-service-illegally/)** > > Today I found out Steve Jobs’ first business was selling “blue boxes” that allowed users to get free phone service illegally. These boxes were designed in 1972 by Jobs’ close friend and future co-founder of Apple, Steve Wozniak.  The idea to... "The two stopped making the boxes after they were nearly caught by the police. Despite giving up on the venture, they reportedly made about $6000 selling the blue boxes and Wozniak claims he once was able to prank call the Pope, posing as Henry Kissinger. The Pope unfortunately was sleeping at the time, so he wasn’t able to talk to him directly. Draper claims he once successfully prank called President Nixon using his own blue box. Since the mid-1990s, blue boxes no longer work in most countries as phone systems throughout the world have been revamped using a digital system and no longer use the in-band signaling that the blue box exploited. Specifically, the new system separates the voice and signaling channels." ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/2 "2016-01-01T00:18:07Z")
In order to prevail in a suit you must be able to prove damages and who did it. The fact the blue boxes completely buffaloed their billing systems means they had exactly zero records of anything being amiss. Kinda hard to prove a damage with no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/3 "2016-01-01T00:25:58Z")
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak weren’t the only ones making and selling blue boxes. The technology was reasonably well known, and they had been told about it by other people. Some of the people using/making/selling them were caught by the police, but others (including the two Steves) weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/4 "2016-01-01T02:04:07Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak weren’t the only ones making and selling blue boxes. The technology was reasonably well known, and they had been told about it by other people. Some of the people using/making/selling them were caught by the police, but others (including the two Steves) weren’t. That sounds like patent infringement–something that the feds, rather than local police, would go after them for. Of course, the phone companies could also sue them. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/5 "2016-01-01T02:27:48Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That sounds like patent infringement–something that the feds, rather than local police, would go after them for. Of course, the phone companies could also sue them. Huh? What patents were being infringed? The use of blue boxes was well covered under ordinary fraud and service theft statutes. The Steves did not suffer consequences because they were simply not caught. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/6 "2016-01-01T02:35:13Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Hi, > Why didn’t the phone companies (AT&T , Bell Labs etc) sue Steve Jobs and Wozniak for financial damages caused b their Blue Box? If someone breaks into your car with a screwdriver, can you sue the screw driver manufacturer ? the screw driver is just a tool, it has many legitimate purposes. There’s no question until you forensically how the law suit strongly argues Jobs and Woz IS liable. The blue box could also be used by a company for legimitate purpose. The blue box is a tone generator, much like a DTMF generator, as found on any analog phone… to dial… the tones… in band dialling tones… Blue box used other frequencies than DTMF, so not just any phone would do it, but the blue box was just a modified DTMF generator… Also a MODEM might have been used instead of a blue box… Especially the acoustic coupled modem. (places at the handset of the phone.) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/7 "2016-01-01T02:44:35Z")
Note that they were also teenagers, filing a lawsuit against someone with no assets typically does not end up well as far as the financials go. The cost to the phone companies from phreaking was fairly small and the phone companies also tended to depend on the the potential federal criminal charges as a deterrent. Also as a side note, I do not know many people whom were in the computer industry in that era whom don’t smirk when they see a “redbox” by a 7/11. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/8 "2016-01-01T14:36:56Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That sounds like patent infringement–something that the feds, rather than local police, would go after them for. Of course, the phone companies could also sue them. That’s not how patent infringement and enforcement works. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/9 "2016-01-01T15:10:24Z")
I don’t see any evidence that the blue box was patented: > **[Blue box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box)** > > A blue box is an electronic device that produces tones used to generate the in-band signaling tones formerly used within the North American long-distance telephone network to send line status and called number information over voice circuits. This allowed an illicit user, referred to as a "phreaker", to place long-distance calls, without using the network's user facilities, that would be billed to another number or dismissed entirely as an incomplete call. A number of similar "color boxes" were... > **[Phreaking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking)** > > Phreaking is a slang term coined to describe the activity of a culture of people who study, experiment with, or explore telecommunication systems, such as equipment and systems connected to public telephone networks. The term phreak is a sensational spelling of the word freak with the ph- from phone, and may also refer to the use of various audio frequencies to manipulate a phone system. Phreak, phreaker, or phone phreak are names used for and by individuals who participate in phreaking. > The ter... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/10 "2016-01-01T15:26:53Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That sounds like patent infringement–something that the feds, rather than local police, would go after them for. Of course, the phone companies could also sue them. Patent infringement is usually a civil matter. Neither the Feds nor police are likely to get involved. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Also as a side note, I do not know many people \*whom \*were in the computer industry in that era \*whom \*don’t smirk when they see a “redbox” by a 7/11. Please indulge the nitpick: These are both in the subjective case and should be “who,” not “whom.” ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/11 "2016-01-01T15:32:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Patent infringement is usually a civil matter. Neither the Feds nor police are likely to get involved. Well, who knows what kind of “enforcement” the telephone companies would use-- even the kind that is clandestine and outside the law? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/12 "2016-01-01T15:43:30Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, who knows what kind of “enforcement” the telephone companies would use-- even the kind that is clandestine and outside the law? If they’re using some kind of extra-legal means of coercion, doesn’t that rule out the FBI? I mean, even if the FBI is stepping over legal bounds, it’s still a law-enforcement agency. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/13 "2016-01-01T15:56:40Z")
As Ernestine the Bell Operator used to say > [@Ernestine](#): > > We’re the Telephone company. We’re omnipotent! The FBI is small beer compared to power like that. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/14 "2016-01-01T17:51:26Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, who knows what kind of “enforcement” the telephone companies would use-- even the kind that is clandestine and outside the law? The [Phone Cops](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwirxPudl4nKAhWMPj4KHQDXDpYQyCkIHzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTPzTG1Lx60&usg=AFQjCNGCiv2iGcyQ6jXq7z0SOff9t3Z_fA)! ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/15 "2016-01-01T18:24:34Z")
FWIW, the actor Bob Cummings was [arrested](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19751217&id=Xa5VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=POADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6355,5156628&hl=en) in Seattle in 1975 for using a blue box. The article lists the charges he faced (obtaining service and possession of the device). Jobs and Woz would have faced similar if not greater charges. One thing to note in the article is that a PNWBell spokesperson said it was the first case in a while of someone using a blue box. I think these were fairly common in the early 70s (I went to high school with a guy who later went on to make them for certain “good” fellows in SF.) I would have expected more frequent cases. Maybe the phone company couldn’t track down blue box users all that well if the users were cautious. E.g., using pay phones a lot, not using the same phone twice, etc. It sounds like Cummings was not smart. The power of The Phone Company was sufficient to be used as a major plot point in _The President’s Analyst_ (1967). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/16 "2016-01-01T20:35:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > As Ernestine the Bell Operator used to say > The FBI is small beer compared to power like that. As a member of a telephone-company family myself I would not necessarily agree with Lily Tomlin’s writers. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/17 "2016-01-02T02:57:44Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > As Ernestine the Bell Operator used to say > The FBI is small beer compared to power like that. In [the short of her on SNL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgUN_95UAw) she actually said, _“We don’t care, we don’t have to! We’re The Phone Company”_ This is going back a ways, but in Robert Cringely’s great _Triumph of the Nerds_ miniseries I remember Wozniak saying that although Jobs wanted to go into business selling them they never really got beyond just charging other college kids small fees to make calls to keep themselves in ‘pizza money’. I also remember, from a book I think, that when IBM was looking for an OS for their upcoming PC and they met with the nascent Apple hippies they were more than a little off-put by Wozniak’s bragging about having invented a device which was, to them, nothing more than something to illegally pirate services from another corporation. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/18 "2016-01-02T14:39:02Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > In [the short of her on SNL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgUN_95UAw) she actually said, _“We don’t care, we don’t have to! We’re The Phone Company”_ > … Good knock-off skit. But she said similar things about the untrammeled power of the Telephone Company in many of her skits on the original Laugh In. And in one such skit she actually did say “We’re Omnipotent!” Pronounced very distinctly. And then proceeded to haughtily & icily explain what that word meant to her off-screen complaining caller who didn’t know the word. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/19 "2016-01-02T15:19:47Z")
That’s potent with an omni in front of it. (starting at about 1:47) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861/20 "2016-01-02T17:32:19Z")
Perfect. I looked on YouTube but didn’t bother to watch all the chunks it found to see if that skit was one of them. I haven’t seen that since it (& me) was new in 1970ish. Thanks a bunch. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-didnt-the-phone-companies-sue-steve-jobs-for-hacking-their-system-with-his-blue-box/741861.md?page=2)