# Why dived instead of dove? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 19, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369 "2006-08-19T20:19:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WaterBeGood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de0a6/32.png) [@WaterBeGood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WaterBeGood)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/1 "2006-08-19T20:19:22Z")
[rant] As I read through the harry potter series, I noticed the word “dived” many times, and it always irked me. I kept thinking “damnit, why can’t she just say dove?”. Same with the word “breathed” (but far less common), it should be changed to brothe, or something…I don’t know. [/rant] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/2 "2006-08-19T20:26:46Z")
IME, from more than the occasional conversation with Brits aware of past-tense formation in the UK vs. America, there are nontrivial differences. If you encounter spelt, it’s highly likely to be coming from a Brit. Same with learnt and dived. As Rowling is a Brit, that’s my guess. (The British versions of the HP books are rather strikingly different from the American versions, which are themselves not entirely up to the more rigorous of American standards. The most recent book, for example, was disgustingly ridden with comma splices.) ---
**Author:** ![gabriela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@gabriela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gabriela)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/3 "2006-08-19T20:37:08Z")
Many strong verbs (I dive, I dove, I have dived – or is it diven?) are gradually becoming weak verbs as the language changes over the centuries. I have noticed my newspaper using “shined” more often; I prefer “shone”, but I understand the process and I am not about to bitch about it. (I shine, I shone, I have shone, versus I shine, I shined, I have shined) Only very, very common strong verbs retain their strong past tenses (I give, I gave, I have given) Steven Pinker made the point in one of his voluminous books that almost nobody knows the present tense of the strong past tense verb “wrought”, as in “What hath God wrought?”. It is not “wreak”. It is another verb which is now completely accepted with a weak conjugation (I x, I xed, I have xed). Any guesses? I know the answer, neener neener neener… ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/4 "2006-08-19T20:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] IME, from more than the occasional conversation with Brits aware of past-tense formation in the UK vs. America, there are nontrivial differences. If you encounter spelt, it’s highly likely to be coming from a Brit. Same with learnt and dived. As Rowling is a Brit, that’s my guess. (The British versions of the HP books are rather strikingly different from the American versions, which are themselves not entirely up to the more rigorous of American standards. The most recent book, for example, was disgustingly ridden with comma splices.) [/QUOTE] That was me, not him. (You try to segregate by browser, and look where it gets you…) ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/5 "2006-08-19T21:16:16Z")
[QUOTE=WaterBeGood] [rant] As I read through the harry potter series, I noticed the word “dived” many times, and it always irked me. I kept thinking “damnit, why can’t she just say dove?”. Same with the word “breathed” (but far less common), it should be changed to brothe, or something…I don’t know. [/rant] [/QUOTE] Heh. I read the title and immediately thought of Harry Potter. It is annoying, but dived is an acceptable alternative for dove. On the other hand, I don’t think that there’s any other past participle for “breathe” other than “breathed”. > [@Captain Carrot](#): > > The most recent book, for example, was disgustingly ridden with comma splices. I’ve noticed this in a lot of Rowling’s dialogue. No one seems to have taught her what a semi-colon is for. > [@gabriela](#): > > Steven Pinker made the point in one of his voluminous books that almost nobody knows the present tense of the strong past tense verb “wrought”, as in “What hath God wrought?”. I had to look this up. I never would have guessed. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/6 "2006-08-19T21:33:02Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] I’ve noticed this in a lot of Rowling’s dialogue. No one seems to have taught her what a semi-colon is for. [/quote] In dialogue or certain specific settings, I could forgive it, as there’s a different way one reads “Why I love you, I need you, I want you” vs “Why I love you; why I need you; why I love you,” and you might be trying to establish a character speaking one way vs. the other. But if you’re going “Hermione carried her books to her side, her backpack was broken, so she was forced to lug the 50-lb tome _Hogwarts, A History_ in by now a thoroughly defatigable right hand that had seen better days,” … well, you should reconsider the entirety of that sentence, but I hope the point is made:) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/7 "2006-08-19T22:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] Heh. I read the title and immediately thought of Harry Potter. It is annoying, but dived is an acceptable alternative for dove. [/QUOTE] More to the point, over here “dove” is an almost completely unacceptable alternative for “dived”. ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/8 "2006-08-19T22:22:57Z")
[QUOTE=gabriela] Steven Pinker made the point in one of his voluminous books that almost nobody knows the present tense of the strong past tense verb “wrought”, as in “What hath God wrought?”. [/QUOTE] I had to look this up too. Interesting. Thanks, **gabriela**! ---
**Author:** ![gabriela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@gabriela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gabriela)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/9 "2006-08-19T22:37:26Z")
Snicker. Only on the Dope do people chime in, “I looked this up, it was interesting!” and the proposer of the tease never has to come through with the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/10 "2006-08-19T23:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] If you encounter spelt, it’s highly likely to be coming from a Brit. [/QUOTE] If I encounter spelt, it’s probably because I’m in the health foods aisle. Being from Canada (and therefore having a little more in common with the Queen’s English) I consider “spelt” an improper spelling. “Dived” also hits my ear the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/11 "2006-08-19T23:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] If I encounter spelt, it’s probably because I’m in the health foods aisle. Being from Canada (and therefore having a little more in common with the Queen’s English) I consider “spelt” an improper spelling. “Dived” also hits my ear the wrong way. [/QUOTE] Uh, spelt is British. They used spelled in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/12 "2006-08-19T23:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=gabriela] Steven Pinker made the point in one of his voluminous books that almost nobody knows the present tense of the strong past tense verb “wrought”, as in “What hath God wrought?”. It is not “wreak”. It is another verb which is now completely accepted with a weak conjugation (I x, I xed, I have xed). [/QUOTE] Work? Not so unusual if you are familiar with wrought iron, which I’ve always understood as worked iron. After I made my guess above I googled about, and ended up trying to get my head around an article about the various forms of “to be”. I may be a native speaker of English but I know so little of the workings beneath the bonnet! I shall, however, strive to use “wert” appropriately the next chance I get. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/13 "2006-08-20T00:07:01Z")
[QUOTE=gabriela] Many strong verbs (I dive, I dove, I have dived – or is it diven?) are gradually becoming weak verbs as the language changes over the centuries. I have noticed my newspaper using “shined” more often; I prefer “shone”, but I understand the process and I am not about to bitch about it. (I shine, I shone, I have shone, versus I shine, I shined, I have shined) Only very, very common strong verbs retain their strong past tenses (I give, I gave, I have given) Steven Pinker made the point in one of his voluminous books that almost nobody knows the present tense of the strong past tense verb “wrought”, as in “What hath God wrought?”. It is not “wreak”. It is another verb which is now completely accepted with a weak conjugation (I x, I xed, I have xed). Any guesses? I know the answer, neener neener neener… [/QUOTE] Wright, I would assume? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/14 "2006-08-20T00:08:21Z")
In my limited linguistics training, we learned that there are some weak verbs that sound like strong verbs, and therefore people often incorrectly treat the past tense as if it were a strong verb. I can’t remember any examples though. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/15 "2006-08-20T00:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] Uh, spelt is British. They used spelled in the US. [/QUOTE] Really? I encounter it so rarely, even among Brits. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/16 "2006-08-20T00:12:45Z")
I think I’m [del]wright[/del] right. I think “wright” was a verb, meaning “work” in the metalsmith sense (and by extension in the playwright and other-wright sense), and of which “wrought” is the past and past-participle form. ---
**Author:** ![gabriela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@gabriela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gabriela)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/17 "2006-08-20T00:36:05Z")
**AHunter3** is indeed right. Award that strange man a camel toe to look at. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/18 "2006-08-20T00:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] Really? I encounter it so rarely, even among Brits. [/QUOTE] I encounter it frequently in situations where it might come up (i.e., not in a conversation about dishtowels, but quite often in grammar conversation), but I also talk a good bit with Brits about grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/19 "2006-08-20T01:58:34Z")
[QUOTE=gabriela] **AHunter3** is indeed right. [/QUOTE] Um, no, he’s not. _Wrought_ is an old past participle of _work_. _Wright_ has only ever been, to my knowledge, a noun. So says both [etymonline.com](http://etymonline.com) and that Stephen Pinker book (I don’t remember which of his it was, but I remember reading that bit.) [QUOTE=Rysto] Heh. I read the title and immediately thought of Harry Potter. It is annoying, but dived is an acceptable alternative for dove. [/QUOTE] Among people who go around deciding which word forms are “acceptable” and which are not, this seems like an awfully odd proclamation. _Dived_ is the original form; _dove_ is a more recent invention (and an American one, if memory serves.) Same with _snuck_ instead of _sneaked_, though (apparently in contrast to _dove_) most people don’t consider _snuck_ appropriate in formal writing. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369/20 "2006-08-20T05:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=gabriela] **AHunter3** is indeed right. Award that strange man a camel toe to look at. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to live that down, am I? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dived-instead-of-dove/369369.md?page=2)