# Why do American movies have only Psychopathic Villains ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 4, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356 "2005-02-04T13:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/41 "2005-02-05T15:39:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now, in a series of movies, or a TV show, you have more time to spend on character development (and on plot, backstory, and the rest), so the heros often end up better-developed. But even there, you still don’t usually get well-defined villains, because a typical villain will only last for one episode. The episode needs some resolution, which typically means a showdown between heroes and villain, and the heroes have to win for the show to go on next week. So a TV villain will usually only get a half hour or an hour of development time (along with everything else that happens on the show), so you’re still restricted in how interesting you can make them. Good point, on Law & Order CI they’ve developed a couple of interesting villains – like the female villain who lasted several episodes – she was a psychopath who had an extremely well developed facade of charm but who used people relentlessly to get what she wanted. They kept revealing more and more horrific things about her character, culminating with the revelation that she had murdered her own 12-year-old daughter and made it look like an accident because she was upset that the duaghter was taking up too much of the husband’s attention. There was also a villain who had a compulsion about numbers. As a general rule, TV writing is MUCH better than the movies that get made, IMHO. There are exceptions like LOTR, but surprisingly few, considering the money that mainstream films have to throw around. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/42 "2005-02-05T15:44:33Z")
Kayser Soze is my vote for best movie villain. While evil, the nature of his evil is interesting. He doesn’t kill for the thrill of it, he has reasons, and he has plans complex enough to be interesting. Also, I give LOTR a pass on the good-evil thing since the whole thing was set up as a morality play and was an obvious play on WW2, which was as close to a pure good-evil conflict as the world is likely to see, where the West was involved. The Soviets vs. the nazis was more more like, semi-evil vs. pure evil. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/43 "2005-02-05T16:46:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Maybe you’re watching the wrong movies? Definitely. We should make a nice long list of villians for Rashak Mani who aren’t over the top evil, but normal people pushed too far or people who are subtly evil. No insane cackling, no elaborate wardrobes, no henchmen, no catchy “cleverly” evil dialogue… To start off with, I’d propose Rashak watch: [Falling Down](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/combined) (an iconic end-of-his-rope figure) [The Shape Of Things](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0308878/combined) [One Hour Photo](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265459/combined) [Tangled](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238137/combined) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/44 "2005-02-05T17:29:56Z")
Evil Captor writes: \> . . . There are exceptions like LOTR . . . In so far as there was any good writing in the Peter Jackson movies of _The Lord of the Rings_, it came directly from the book. The lines that Jackson and his co-writers added were generally pretty poor. The scenes they added were worse. I don’t see what that has to do with the quality of movie screenwriting. \> Also, I give LOTR a pass on the good-evil thing since the whole thing was set up \> as a morality play and was an obvious play on WW2 . . . I don’t think you know much about the writing of _The Lord of the Rings_. In so far as Tolkien intended the book to be a reference to any real-life situations, it was more about World War I than about World War II. You might want to read _Tolkien and the Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth_ by John Garth for more information on this. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/45 "2005-02-05T19:54:22Z")
First, the villains in most American movies (even American action movies) usually AREN’T psychopaths. On the contrary, despite the fact that Hollywood’s major studios are controlled by huge multinational corporations, the villains in most Hollywood films are executives of multinational corporations! Think about this- in the James Bond books by Ian Fleming, the villains were always communist agents of SMERSH (a Russian spy ring). In the movie versions of those same films, the villaisn were always members of SPECTRE (a cartel of evil business executives). Who are the villains of the “Alien” Series? A big corporation. Who are the villains of “Robocop,” “Eraser,” “The Net,” and every Steven Seagal kung fu pic? Corporate executives. Indeed, if you go by Hollywood’s version of corporate America, every Fortune 500 CEO keeps a loaded gun in his desk drawer. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/46 "2005-02-05T21:42:22Z")
Mr. Potter from “It’s a Wonderful Life” was most definitely not psychopathic. He was just greedy. And he accomplished his evil deeds by just trying to drive people to financial ruin. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/47 "2005-02-05T21:52:06Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > Mr. Potter from “It’s a Wonderful Life” was most definitely not psychopathic. He was just greedy. And warped. Frustrated, too. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/48 "2005-02-05T22:22:22Z")
I went to the IMDB and typed in the term “serial killer” under “Plot”. Got 342 matches. Point made, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/49 "2005-02-05T23:21:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As a couple of starter questions, I would be curious to see the lists of the most popular movies from a number of other countries. France, Australia, New Zealand, Iran, and India […] > Now, what are the most popular movies in those countries? If U.S. action-flicks-with-psycho-baddies are very popular in those locations, then I would submit the the U.S. is simply a leader in producing enjoyable action-flicks-with-psycho-baddies . Here’s the list of the most popular movies in France in 2004 : 1. Les choristes (during the late 40’s, in a school for delinquent juveniles, a teacher tries to rehabilitate them by teaching them music and organizing a choral. The “villain” would be the principal, traditionnalist and fond of a repressive education system). The sound track played a large part in this movie’s success. 2)Shrek 2 1. Harry Potter and the prisonner 4)The incredibles 5)Spider-Man 2 1. Un long dimanche de fiancailles (after WWI, a young woman refuses to believe that her fiance was KIA. She tries to find him. The “villains” would be the cold-hearted authorities and the war itself). 2. Brother bear 3. Podium (a comedy : the double of a famous french popular singer has to choose between his passion for his dead idol and his love for a woman. I don’t think there’s any villain) 4. Deux freres (the story of two tigers. I didn’t even know this movie existed. Apparently, the “villains” would be a hunter and a tamer) 5. Shark tale 6. Les 11 commandements (didn’t hear about it, either, apparently a comedy. God states that the world is doomed because people don’t have fun anymore, so some guys have a duty to make the weirdest prank possible, or something similarily silly) 7. Ocean’s twelve 8. Troy 9. The day after tomorrow 10. L’enquete Corse (another comedy, about the situation in Corsica. I don’t think there are real villains, either) I’m going to stop there. I let you draw the conclusions. I just notice that the successful french movies were all “light”, “family-oriented” movies (except for “un long dimanche de fiancailles”). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/50 "2005-02-05T23:33:00Z")
I blame Brazilian movie-goers. Well, not just them, but they’re part of the problem. The American film industry used to be just another national movie business. But back in the 70’s and 80’s, the foreign market for American films became increasingly large. As a result, production money increasingly gravitated towards movies that appealed to international audiences. They emphasized lots of action, physical humor, and sexual innuendo, and de-emphasized the things that wouldn’t translate well like social issues, character complexity, and verbal humor. Making the villains one-dimensional characters is only one aspect of the general dilution of plot that has occurred in the effort to make movies simple enough that anyone in the world will buy a ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/51 "2005-02-05T23:36:45Z")
Anyone else notice that in the list, the #2 movie had a 2 in the title, the #11 movie had an 11 and the #12 movie had a twelve? Cosmique. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/52 "2005-02-05T23:49:04Z")
As an add-on, the 150 most popular movies in France in 2004 were from : USA : 72 France : 51 UK : 5 Japan :2 Germany :2 Spain, Germany, Thailand, Argentina, Canada, Hong-Kong, China : 1 each I know, it only adds up to 140 or so, I probably jumped over a page, still it gives a general grasp. I stopped at 150 because I wanted to mention the number 150 : “Maria, llena eres de gracia”, an american movie in spanish, about a young woman hired to smuggle drig into the USA, set in Columbia and New-York, that I enjoyed a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/53 "2005-02-06T02:41:57Z")
My guess is that Americans have become so GOOD at making mindless, simplistic action drivel that other countries don’t even try any more. The average american boob isn’t going to watch an action flick with subtitles. So foriegn films are tailored to the art-house, intellectual crowd which neccesarily means more complex plots and moral dillemmas. I would wager that if you looked at art-house flicks only, the trend would disappear. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/54 "2005-02-06T03:03:18Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > My guess is that Americans have become so GOOD at making mindless, simplistic action drivel that other countries don’t even try any more. The average american boob isn’t going to watch an action flick with subtitles. So foriegn films are tailored to the art-house, intellectual crowd which neccesarily means more complex plots and moral dillemmas. I would wager that if you looked at art-house flicks only, the trend would disappear. The other possibility is that foreign films suck ass, and people who aren’t americans can’t make a decent flick to save their sorry little lives. Well, I figured it would be worthwhile to respond to idiocy with idiocy. Perhaps you could try to use some reasoning, as opposed to stereotypical (and simple) nationality bashing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/55 "2005-02-06T03:40:48Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > My guess is that Americans have become so GOOD at making mindless, simplistic action drivel that other countries don’t even try any more. Doubtful that quality is a factor. Efficiency, maybe, since action movies are expensive and since the American film industry is quite wealthy, they can produce _more_ movies, with the crappy ones being quickly forgotten and the decent ones getting lots of play. If the U.S. produces 50 major action movies in a year, with thirty being complete crap, the surviving twenty can do quite well. France might produce ten major action movies a year and if the same ratio held, they’d only have _four_ action films of note. As a result, the U.S. seems to have an overall edge in quality (with five times as many successful movies), when in fact it’s simply quantity and natural selection. > [@](#): > > The average american boob isn’t going to watch an action flick with subtitles. Doubtful, and elitist. _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_ and _Hero_ are subtitled, recent and popular in the U.S. > [@](#): > > I would wager that if you looked at art-house flicks only, the trend would disappear. Well, assuming you could stave off the suicidal depression. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/56 "2005-02-06T04:09:42Z")
> [@](#): > > My guess is that Americans have become so GOOD at making mindless, simplistic action drivel that other countries don’t even try any more. The average american boob isn’t going to watch an action flick with subtitles. So foriegn films are tailored to the art-house, intellectual crowd which neccesarily means more complex plots and moral dillemmas. I would wager that if you looked at art-house flicks only, the trend would disappear. Like I said before, international audiences get a biased view of what American audiences watch because American action films are what international audiences want to see. There are a number of American-made action films that did poorly in the United States because American audiences didn’t want to see them but then went on to be successful overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/57 "2005-02-08T00:35:11Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > The other possibility is that foreign films suck ass, and people who aren’t americans can’t make a decent flick to save their sorry little lives. > > Well, I figured it would be worthwhile to respond to idiocy with idiocy. > > Perhaps you could try to use some reasoning, as opposed to stereotypical (and simple) nationality bashing. Guh, which part are you disputing? Action films are expensive to make and require lots of tickets to break even. American’s are more likely to watch American made films than foriegn made films, especially those with foriegn languages. As a result, American filmmakers have a unique advantage when making action films and, as such, most other countries don’t bother. OTOH, art-house films are much more cheaply made and rely on niche crowds who are not so fussy about sub-titles. As a result, a decently made foriegn art-house film has a good chance of beating out a mediocre American one. Logically, foriegn film makers would concentrate more on art house than action films. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/58 "2005-02-08T00:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Doubtful that quality is a factor. Efficiency, maybe, since action movies are expensive and since the American film industry is quite wealthy, they can produce _more_ movies, with the crappy ones being quickly forgotten and the decent ones getting lots of play. If the U.S. produces 50 major action movies in a year, with thirty being complete crap, the surviving twenty can do quite well. France might produce ten major action movies a year and if the same ratio held, they’d only have _four_ action films of note. As a result, the U.S. seems to have an overall edge in quality (with five times as many successful movies), when in fact it’s simply quantity and natural selection. [/QUOTE[ I’m not saying theres anything wrong with simplistic drivel. Theres a market for it and it needs to be satisfied. Hell, I watch a hell of a lot of it when I can’t be bothered to turn on my brain. All I’m saying is that foriegn film-makers can’t compete in that arena. > [@](#): > > Doubtful, and elitist. _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_ and _Hero_ are subtitled, recent and popular in the U.S. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. If subtitled movies really were popular in mainstream cinema, then CTHD and Hero wouldn’t have been made as such a big deal as they were. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/59 "2005-02-09T17:25:49Z")
Just a little note… I do like action flicks… I just don’t think they need to be so “dumb” in some aspects. Especially with marketing taking more and more money than the movie making itself. Naturally I try to balance smart/artsy/european movies with american action movies, depending on my mood. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356/60 "2005-02-19T09:10:15Z")
> [@TwoTrouts](#): > > The American public is absolutely fascinated by the psychopathic killer. Look at how easily the names of the serial killers conjer up images of brutality for the average American: Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Ng, John Wayne Gacy, Son of Sam, etc etc. America just cannot get enough info on these home-grown boogeymen. The thought of a serial killer on the loose will terrify and transfix the population of this nation. The studios are just making money off of this fear. And the funny thing is, those guys just looked like regular guys. No burning eyes, no widow’s peak and smooth pale skin, no grand manner of speech. As **GomiBoy** pointed out, evil doesn’t walk in and say, “Hello, I’m evil.” It sits next to you on the subway. It walks your dog. It dresses up as a clown, or introduces itself as a security guard, or takes you to a software conference. Remember that site someone linked to: “Programmer or Serial Killer”, I think it was called? I can think of a movie villain who didn’t fit the physical stereotype, and might not even have fit the psychological profile. In **8MM** , Nic Cage finally tracks down the murderer. He’s [spoiler]in the backyard of his house, wearing a full-body bondage suit, complete with hood. After some dialogue, he takes off the hood to reveal himself as… …just some guy. In fact, he looked a bit like the Comic Book Guy. Which is kind of what I was expecting. I don’t know if it was implicit in further dialogue or if I just inferred it, but the impression I got was that if he’d been physically intimidating, he woudn’t have **needed** the bondage gear.[/spoiler] Oh, and **Shalmanese** , I don’t know if I’m the average American boob (though Mr. Rilch would attest that my boobs are well above average), but I was highly entertained by some of John Woo’s subtitled films. I highly recommend the Hong Kong version of **The Killer**. As for foreign films being tailored to appeal to the art-house crowd, I knew before I even looked at the list on the previous page that Italy and France have produced comedies that make **Meatballs** look like thoughtful sociological analysis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-american-movies-have-only-psychopathic-villains/288356.md?page=4)