# Why do Americans dislike France? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 9, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327 "2008-12-09T00:25:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/161 "2008-12-16T04:25:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **I** never got the whole hatred since France is one of our oldest allies-weren’t they a huge help during the Revolution? Hell, Napoleon probably did us a favor during the War of 1812, distracting the British and all. 😉 Why is it that people bring this up but they don’t bring up the Quasi-War between the United States and France from 1798-1800? Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/162 "2008-12-16T04:29:24Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Why is it that people bring this up but they don’t bring up the Quasi-War between the United States and France from 1798-1800? That’s when John Adams virtually single-handedly kept us from full-out war with France. (Cite: _John Adams_, by David McCullough.) And good for him, too! We certainly never would have obtained the Louisiana Purchase if we had, and the course of US history would have been vastly altered. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/163 "2008-12-16T17:20:59Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Could you elaborate on these personal experiences? Up until 1985, every French person I personally met (Central US, TX, OK, AR, etc ) was obnoxious. Male, female, old, student on exchange programs, all were elitist, snobby, rude and very vocal about how the US was a terrible place. In 1985, I went with my family to France from England. The very first thing was that no one would talk to us since we could not speak French. They were rude X 42. Then we found that we had to pay to go to the bathroom and those were the nastiest things I have ever seen and I have seen some nasty stuff. I do not understand the all this, and no, I did not go with a chip on my shoulder. They were rude and nasty to to my small children who were better behaved that the locals. I did not go to the big tourist cities like Paris etc. But within 100 Km of the coast, it was clear that it was all they could do to not spit on us. I have not been back since 85. I’m sure my trip was the exception. Too bad, they did it and I won’t give them another shot at me. YMMV PS, Why don’t they bathe regular? They stink… _::: civilized my ass :::_ ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/164 "2008-12-16T17:45:35Z")
n several business trips to France (Paris, Cannes, Lyon) I found the people i met to be very nice. My (limited) French was enough to get by with, and people did go out of their way to be helpful. I did NOT like the bathrooms in paris, however. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/165 "2008-12-16T17:45:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It’s also worth noting that the French are not NEARLY so different from Americans as French elites pretend (or American elites hope). > … Why would you say American elites hope the Americans and French are different? Since we are indulging in stereotypes here I would have said that the stereotypical American elite (I’m thinking someone like Senator and former presidential candidate John Kerry) would (again, stereotypically) admire the French worldview and try to emulate it. In my experience it is this kind of (stereotypical) perception that has often been used to bash the American elite as being out of touch with “real” Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/166 "2008-12-16T17:47:00Z")
G’morning! I live in Canada where a tiny minority of the population is from Quebec, **however** , the rest of us must first listen to _ **everything** _ governmental, and even from companies such as \*\*Sears \*\*in French FIRST and press #1 on the phone if we’d like to speak English. I’m not Canadian and am fluent in French so it doesn’t bother me all that much, but it does seem a trifle arrogant to hold the other 30+ million Canadians who’re English-speaking over a linguistic barrel this way. Most non-Quebecois Canadians intensely dislike the French here - it’s called frustration, I think. FWIW - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/167 "2008-12-16T18:34:59Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I live in Canada where a tiny minority of the population is from Quebec More than 23%, according to Wikipedia. How tiny. > [@](#): > > **however** , the rest of us must first listen to _ **everything** _ governmental, and even from companies such as \*\*Sears \*\*in French FIRST and press #1 on the phone if we’d like to speak English. I’m not Canadian and am fluent in French so it doesn’t bother me all that much, but it does seem a trifle arrogant to hold the other 30+ million Canadians who’re English-speaking over a linguistic barrel this way. They do the same thing in the US, only with Spanish. That’s got to be the worst possible reason for a Western Canadian to be annoyed with Quebec. And what’s it got to do with why Americans dislike France? English Canadians are not Americans and Quebecers are not French. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/168 "2008-12-16T19:11:26Z")
G’morning Hypnagogic Jerk! (You really chose that username? ROFL!) Even if 25% of the population were French that would hardly justify holding French up as the language of choice, now would it? I can understand the frustration of English-speaking Canadians. I don’t share it, but I understand it. You say English-speaking Canadians aren’t American. That’s incorrect. Canada is part of North America. They’re not U.S. Citizens but they’re certainly American. The Americas include North, Central, and South America, HJ. We lived in Aspen for years, and in the states you don’t have Spanish on every food item, clothing item, menu, and street sign, etc. In Canada we do, although not where I live in the middle of the mountains and at the highway’s end. We have the local tribal language on our stop signs since the population here, such as it is, is predominantly native. This is true of most of the mountain regions in North Western Canada. BTW, it seems to me that the Hispanic population of Canada is marked and is increasing. Of course, Hispanic families usually have many children, and the average N. American family isn’t even replacing itself, so Spanish might be a good language to learn if you don’t already speak it. 😉 Shalom Aleikhem - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/169 "2008-12-16T19:38:02Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > With all due respect, sir, balderdash. > > The British certainly preformed well in Spain and Belgium during the Napoleonic Wars, but only with substantial help from allies in the field. The Spanish and the Portugese in Spain and the Dutch-Belgians and the Germans at Waterloo. It can be fairly argued that Waterloo was Germany’s victory, not England’s. From then on the British were not involved in a European war until 1914. In 1914 all they could provide was a puny six or seven long service regular division that were pretty well ground to powder before the innocents who were massacred at the Somme were able to take the field.. In the mean time, all through the 19th Century the British made their reputation by fighting ill-armed and ill-organized and ill-trained native levies. > > There are two exception to the 19th Century generality – the Crimea and the Boer Wars. The Crimea was won because the British were facing an adversary as inept as the British and because the French carried the greater part of the fight. The Charge of the Light Brigade might be good poetry but it was very bad war making. > > The Boer Wars are an interesting study of what guerrillas with modern arms (the Mauser Rifle) and high motivations can do to a western army with an outmoded doctrine and obsolete equipment. In took the imposition of nearly genocidal methods for a world wide empire with unlimited manpower and funds to suppress the Boer. > > This is hardly persuasive of the idea that Great Britain was the (or even a) dominant 19th Century military world power. First of all, your analysis is dead on arrival because you ignore a little thing called the Seven Years War (or French and Indian War if you prefer). Second, as to your point about the Napoleonic Wars and the 19th century in general, England never had a huge army because it didn’t need a huge army. It was a sea borne power that spent most of the 17th and 18th centuries systematically wiping the floor with any other country that even attempted to float a navy. It was always England’s strategy to control the sea, deploy their army where it was needed most, and count on their continental rivals to check each other. Based on your own analysis, the plan seemed to work pretty well. On preview, I see others beat me to most of my points. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/170 "2008-12-16T20:07:12Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > In 1985, I went with my family to France from England. The very first thing was that no one would talk to us since we could not speak French. Have you considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe they didn’t speak English either ? Outside of Paris most French don’t. Inside of Paris it’s too dark too read. Wait, I fucked up that joke. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/171 "2008-12-16T22:06:09Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > G’morning Hypnagogic Jerk! (You really chose that username? ROFL!) I believe I took it from a post by **Darth Nader**. > [@](#): > > Even if 25% of the population were French that would hardly justify holding French up as the language of choice, now would it? I can understand the frustration of English-speaking Canadians. I don’t share it, but I understand it. According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada) again, 21.7% of Canadians have French as a first language, and 58.2% have English. (These figures do not seem to include multiple responses.) French certainly isn’t the “language of choice” in Canada outside of Quebec, I don’t know how you can think otherwise. You’ve described in your post the fact that some businesses (Sears) and the federal government offer telephone services in French. Well, yeah, usually these phone lines are accessible from everywhere in Canada, including places where most people will be able to speak English and places where most people will be able to speak French. So it makes sense to offer services in both languages (and in the case of the federal government, I think it’s legally mandated). I think your friends’ complaint is that you have to press _one button_ on your phone to reach the English-language services or else it will reach the French-language services. I’m sorry, but I can’t take this seriously as a complaint. You and your friends are not denied service in your language in any other way. If you feel enough anger about it (for whatever reason), call Sears and tell them you won’t shop with them anymore unless they put English first. > [@](#): > > You say English-speaking Canadians aren’t American. That’s incorrect. Canada is part of North America. They’re not U.S. Citizens but they’re certainly American. The Americas include North, Central, and South America, HJ. Oh please. “Americans” refers to US citizens (or residents, etc.), not to Canadians, Mexicans or Uruguayans. In any case, US Americans is who the OP was talking about. This reminds me of some of the weird debates we’ve had here over the term “African-American”. Some people were claiming that most black Americans, not being born in Africa or having recent ancestors from Africa, shouldn’t be called African-Americans. Well sorry, but “African-American” refers to the culture of those dark-skinned Americans who are descended from African slaves, or who have integrated into this culture (Barack Obama for example). Your post was completely off-topic because it didn’t refer to Americans _or_ to the French. Francophone Canadians are not French. If you want to continue this discussion, it should be in another thread. > [@](#): > > We lived in Aspen for years, and in the states you don’t have Spanish on every food item, clothing item, menu, and street sign, etc. In Canada we do, although not where I live in the middle of the mountains and at the highway’s end. In Canada you have French on everything, but not where you live. :dubious: What does that mean? How much of Canada have you even seen? There are places in Canada where signage is English-only, French-only, English and French, in some native language or in some other language. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/172 "2008-12-16T23:46:01Z")
Please stop with the American Bull shit. Every foreign news source refers to the United States as the Americans. Go yell at the Euro press or the rest of the world. Everybody I know says the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/173 "2008-12-17T03:28:27Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > Please stop with the American Bull shit. Every foreign news source refers to the United States as the Americans. Go yell at the Euro press or the rest of the world. Everybody I know says the United States of America. Here, too. And even among my Canadian friends here, American = US. I’ve seen this controversy before and never understood it. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/174 "2008-12-17T09:06:36Z")
G’morning HJ! You said, ‘You’ve described in your post the fact that some businesses (Sears) and the federal government offer telephone services in French.’ No, that’s not what I said. Before we go any further, I’d like you to notice that none of this bothers me, but rather, it bothers the majority of English-speaking Canadians. (I have many dear friends from Montreal.) What I said is that French is the language we hear FIRST on EVERY PHONE MESSAGE. It isn’t a choice, it’s in your face, you have to listen to French for five minutes before you can elect to speak to someone in English, and _that’s_ what ticks most people off. If you don’t speak French, and few do west of Ontario, then a certain level of frustration is understandable, I think. Personally, I’d put my energy into learning French (did that when I was a teen), but not everyone feels they either can or should have to. This isn’t a point worth arguing over but it is the situation up here. Shalom Aleikhem - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/175 "2008-12-17T16:42:57Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > What I said is that French is the language we hear FIRST on EVERY PHONE MESSAGE. Yes, that’s what I pointed later, and then said that I didn’t think it was a serious complaint. > [@](#): > > It isn’t a choice, it’s in your face, you have to listen to French for five minutes before you can elect to speak to someone in English, and _that’s_ what ticks most people off. When I call these lines (and of course in my case it’s expected that the default should be French, given where I live), usually _the first thing I hear_ is “for service in English, press nine” or something like this. Waiting for five minutes to get service in your language? I don’t believe it, unless you’ve missed this message. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/176 "2008-12-17T16:52:08Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > As noted by someone above the English have been doing it for a millennium, although the English had much better reason to fear the French than Americans ever did. > > . Brit Francophile here. I think that the British attitude towards the French in historical times was one more of hatred and contempt then fear. Please note that I personally do not hold this opinion but it was always the norm to demonise your enemies. Significantly smaller English armies defeated the French quite often in the Middle Ages,Agincourt being the most famous. At Waterloo Napoleans Imperial Guard turned and ran away when for the first time in their lives they faced British Guardsmen,this probably precipitated the general French retreat and destruction of French morale. During WW1 French troops mutinied on the Western Front and the situation was only saved by desperately overstretched and worn out British troops taking over their place in the line. In WW2 despite an Anglo-French agreement(that was supposedly written in stone figuretively)that there would be no seperate peace deals negotiated with the enemy the French surrendered to the Germans and then told the Brits what they had done. Amongst other things as a result of this the British 51st Highland Division was cut off and lost to the Germans. (For those of you who are a bit hazy on events at this time The British were still landing troops in France AFTER the Dunkirk evacuation) Heavy French naval forces in N.Africa still under nominal French control were requested by Churchill to come over to our side or at least scuttle their ships as it was believed that the Germans were going to take them over and use them against us. The French Admiral (Darlan I believe )refused as he hated us more then the Germans so we had to sink his fleet. Now I know that the French armed forces have performed many very brave and noble acts throughout history and I personally am a great admirer of Napoleon,but it tends to be the ignoble acts of the French that get remembered not the heroic ones. This isn’t fair but thats human nature for you. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/177 "2008-12-17T17:08:53Z")
G’morning HJ! As I’ve repeatedly said, English is _not_ my first language, so I couldn’t care less _personally_ whether phone messages are in French, Spanish, or any other Latin-based language, or Hebrew or Aramaic for that matter. I was simply relating to you what I hear from the English-speaking Canadians I’ve heard complain about the fact that French is the primary language used in a country where the majority of people aren’t French or bi-lingual. Parisian French is quite different from the French spoken in Quebec, but having lived in the states, I didn’t notice that ‘Americans’ _do_ dislike France. They certainly spend enough time and money visiting the place. I lived in France as a child for a short time only (my father was in the Royal Air Force so we were posted all over Europe for a while) but there has never been a shortage of American tourists there to my knowledge. None of my American friends are bigots, so I may be missing something I’d see if I traveled in different company. :dubious: I hope not. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/178 "2008-12-17T17:14:36Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Amongst other things as a result of this the British 51st Highland Division was cut off and lost to the Germans. Hey, I’ve heard of this, in the song _The Beaches of St. Valery_ by The Battlefield Band (from the album [Rain, Hail or Shine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain,_Hail_or_Shine)). The narrator’s countrymen aren’t even nice to him after his release. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/179 "2008-12-17T17:44:24Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I was simply relating to you what I hear from the English-speaking Canadians I’ve heard complain about the fact that French is the primary language used in a country where the majority of people aren’t French or bi-lingual. And what **I** ’m saying is that the example you’ve given (sometimes when you call an automated telephone line, they speak to you in French before speaking to you in English) doesn’t support your assertion at all. Maybe these English Canadians claim this as the reason why they’re bothered by the existence of French-speakers in their country, but it’s an excuse and the _real_ reason is different. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-americans-dislike-france/476327/180 "2008-12-17T17:56:56Z")
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