# Why do ANY mainstream figures doubt or deny racism is involved in the Charleston shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956 "2015-06-19T17:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/261 "2015-06-21T17:33:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can you please tell me which of those links is to his earlier statement? Bad link. [This is the correct link.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sofER1B30vI) > [@](#): > > Also, there is no republican narrative that racism doesn’t exist, and no one in this thread has said so or would say so. When the phrase has been used, it has been clear hyperbole… Says you. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/262 "2015-06-21T17:33:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I was talking about my own quotation marks. Yours were scare quotes. Define scare quotes please. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/263 "2015-06-21T17:33:29Z")
You’re the one who isn’t here to debate with facts or logic, **tomndebb**. Look, for example, at your response to my claim that you mischaracterized Doocy. I said, among other specific factual arguments, that “He specifically says that the notion that this was a racial hate crime would be ‘extraordinary’.” Your response was “The only mischaracterization I see is your weird interpretations of what Doocy, Bush, and Obama’s earliest comment.” That’s not debate. It’s exactly what you are incorrectly accusing \*\*Frylock \*\*of doing. You’re merely projecting your failings in this thread upon him. Maybe instead of trying to get the thread moved to the Pit, you should drop the insults about the true motivations of the people in the thread who disagree with you and actually address the arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/264 "2015-06-21T17:33:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It only becomes irrelevant if you can provide a list of other people who have and have not “doubted or denied” the racism of the attack. While your OP was vague, all your purported examples appeared to be members of the political Right. This makes your thread look very much like a stealth attack on the political Right, (unless you want to pretend that every member on the Left has made the “correct” statements, something you have failed to demonstrate). Talk goes nowhere right now. Now is the time for action. My action is, hitting the submit button without making any substantial reply. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/265 "2015-06-21T17:35:01Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Define scare quotes please. Quotation marks used to indicate that a phrase is being used in a non-standard sense–often, but not always, in an ironic sense. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/266 "2015-06-21T17:38:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad link. [This is the correct link.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sofER1B30vI) I don’t see any doubting, hedging, denying, offering of alternative hypotheses, or anything like that. He was asked a question about what he thinks of the significance for this event on the gun control issue, and he answered it accordingly. > [@](#): > > Says you. It is part of discussion in good faith that one does not ascribe to one’s interlocutor abjectly ridiculous claims if there is a plausible alternative interpretation of what the interlocutor said. By doing the former rather than the latter, even after an explanation of how to do the latter has been given to you, you thereby constitute yourself as failing to discuss in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/267 "2015-06-21T17:40:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The sentence is grammatically perfect. Except for the typo. “Is” should be deleted. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/268 "2015-06-21T17:51:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Quotation marks used to indicate that a phrase is being used in a non-standard sense–often, but not always, in an ironic sense. That doesn’t sound scary to me. But lets go with this. I TOLD you how I was using them. React to my post with THAT in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/269 "2015-06-21T17:54:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > That doesn’t sound scary to me. > > But lets go with this. I TOLD you how I was using them. React to my post with THAT in mind. Okay, just to be clear again–in the part of my quote I posted, I was reacting to **John Mace** , not to you. I was referring to a discussion we’d had in the past about quotation marks. I was pointing to how I (not you) had just used quotation marks as an example of an earlier claim I had made. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/270 "2015-06-21T18:07:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t see any doubting, hedging, denying, offering of alternative hypotheses, or anything like that. He was asked a question about what he thinks of the significance for this event on the gun control issue, and he answered it accordingly. “Ultimately, what we are dealing with is the evil [_sic_]…” Not racism, evil[ness]. At least Santorum used the word “hate” in his original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/271 "2015-06-21T18:52:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Ultimately, what we are dealing with is the evil [_sic_]…” Not racism, evil[ness]. > > At least Santorum used the word “hate” in his original statement. I also don’t think racism is what we’re dealing with “ultimately.” He didn’t seem to me to be making that statement in order to distract from the question of racism. Did he seem to you to be doing that? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/272 "2015-06-21T18:55:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Okay, just to be clear again–in the part of my quote I posted, I was reacting to **John Mace** , not to you. I was referring to a discussion we’d had in the past about quotation marks. I was pointing to how I (not you) had just used quotation marks as an example of an earlier claim I had made. Lets just agree to whatever whatever because I gotta go for the day. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/273 "2015-06-22T09:03:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Do you never check news sites?](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jeb-bush-charleston-shooting-remarks) :dubious: From that link, here’s what Bush said when the question was repeated: > [@](#): > > When pressed again about whether race motivated the attacks, Bush said, “I don’t know. Looks like to me it was, but we’ll find out all the information. It’s clear it was an act of raw hatred, for sure. Nine people lost their lives, and they were African-American. You can judge what it is.” Politicians are always mealy-mouthed, goes with the territory, but I see nothing particularly terrible about the statement. Are there more definitive exemplars? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/274 "2015-06-22T14:10:09Z")
When Muslim extremists attacked a Jewish deli in Paris, Obama and his administration were slow to call it antisemitism. In an interview several _weeks_ after the fact. Obama called it a “random” shooting, and his spokesman insisted that the shootings were “not because of who [the victims] were, but because of where they randomly happened to be.” Only later, after objection, did the spokesman say it was indeed “antisemitism.” (Doing the classic Washington, “our position hasn’t changed, it only \*looks \*like we’re saying the opposite of what we said eight hours ago”). As far as I know, Obama himself has never clarified his statements. > **[White House Says Shooting at Kosher Market in Paris Was 'Random'](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-shooting-kosher-market-paris-random/story?id=28871389)** I would be highly amused to see the OP write a post explaining how Obama and his spokesman’s hesitancy in using the word “antisemitism” weeks after the deli attack was totally OK and understandable, but the Pub candidates’ hesitancy in using “racism” within the first 72 hours in Charleston was not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/275 "2015-06-22T14:20:47Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I would be highly amused to see the OP write a post explaining how Obama and his spokesman’s hesitancy in using the word “antisemitism” weeks after the deli attack was totally OK and understandable, but the Pub candidates’ hesitancy in using “racism” within the first 72 hours in Charleston was not. Imagining hypocrisy is indeed an amusing pastime! Have fun with it! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/276 "2015-06-22T15:05:19Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I would be highly amused to see the OP write a post explaining how Obama and his spokesman’s hesitancy in using the word “antisemitism” weeks after the deli attack was totally OK and understandable, but the Pub candidates’ hesitancy in using “racism” within the first 72 hours in Charleston was not. That would be amusing wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/277 "2015-06-22T17:54:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Politics must be driven by the facts, the facts are not driven by politics, not in an ignorance-fighting environment. This was racist. That is a fact. The fact has political implications, yes, but the politics do not have factual implications. Other than a few schools and internet sites, where are you finding this ignorance-fighting environment? Certainly not in DC politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956.md?page=13)