# Why do ANY mainstream figures doubt or deny racism is involved in the Charleston shooting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956 "2015-06-19T17:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/41 "2015-06-19T18:44:36Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is stupid. No, it isn’t. We have all the facts necessary to know for certain that this is racism. Therefore anyone who fails to condemn explicitly is waffling. This is almost certainly due to racism, or a desire to appeal to racists. QED. If it works for Republicans, it works for you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/42 "2015-06-19T18:47:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Hey while we’re at this, people in this thread, let me ask you: True or false, this guy shot those people in Charleston because he is a racist. > > ?? He’s racist. I don’t think there is any room for doubt on the point. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/43 "2015-06-19T18:48:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it isn’t. We have all the facts necessary to know for certain that this is racism. Therefore anyone who fails to condemn explicitly is waffling. This is almost certainly due to racism, or a desire to appeal to racists. > > QED. If it works for Republicans, it works for you. > > Regards, > Shodan I am talking about people who do things like actively hedging and offering alternative explanations. Not a failure to do, an actual doing. I am not in this thread doing the thing I’m discussing that others have done. Moreover, even if I were, that would just mean I myself am one of the people I’m asking about. It is not unusual, and is often a sign of wisdom, for a person to ask others why he himself does the things he does. If you think I’m doing the very thing I’m asking about, and you have a hypothesis about my behavior which you think applies to the general case, offer the hypothesis and further the discussion. If _not_, then you are not participating in the conversation you are pretending to participate in. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/44 "2015-06-19T18:55:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > We can’t be sure there was a racial motive. I mean, a white supremacist did shoot up a black church _while saying he was doing it for racist reasons_, but let’s not jump to conclusions. I wonder if any of these same people were complaining that Obama didn’t say “Terrorist attack” fast enough after Benghazi? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/45 "2015-06-19T18:59:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re objecting to the presence of politics in a thread about politics? Okay then … [Stop - I say stop it, boy. You’re doin’ a lot of choppin’, but no chips are flyin’](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8TQZBHszI4). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/46 "2015-06-19T19:05:28Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > A nice collection is [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/republicans-charleston-shooting_n_7616378.html). Some clearer cases than others. And then there’s this doozy from Fox: [http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/18/foxs-steve-doocy-its-extraordinary-that-charles/204043](http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/18/foxs-steve-doocy-its-extraordinary-that-charles/204043) (see this is actually about hatred of religion). Anyone who has any doubts that a handful of politicians are trying to distance themself from calling this outright racism should check the link. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/47 "2015-06-19T19:06:35Z")
Use empathy and see it from their side. You know who blames everything on racism? PC liberals. No benefit to helping out the other side or flying their flag. There’s also some cultural tribalism re: “Southern pride.” No reason to tar and feather your own people. If you’re not Muslim I think the only way to be called a terrorist is if you use a bomb. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/48 "2015-06-19T19:45:29Z")
I’m still not seeing anyone saying that they doubted it was racism. Can someone quote who is saying that? If you want to complain that they are not using the word “racism”, that’s one thing. But it seems to me it’s as silly a complaint as when the Republicans go all ape-shit if “terrorism” isn’t explicitly called out. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/49 "2015-06-19T19:47:01Z")
I think this is a perfect case of sticking to your talking points even if you secretly believe otherwise. I doubt any of the politicians in the link above have any doubt whatsoever that the cause was racism, they are just reluctant due to political pressure to admit racism happens. But let’s turn it on the other side of the coin. Suppose in one particular government housing project there was a group of people teaching other residents to “scam” the government and get more benefits than they actually needed. Suppose it was at the community center adjacent to housing project. Just how harsh, exactly, do you think liberal politicians would be when they found out this large scale fraud was being perpetuated? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/50 "2015-06-19T19:53:41Z")
[Rick Perry says](http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/06/19/3672122/rick-perry-says-obama-administration-always-overreacts-accidents-like-charleston-shooting/) it was an “accident”, and that Roof must have been on drugs. So, you know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/51 "2015-06-19T19:59:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Rick Perry says](http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/06/19/3672122/rick-perry-says-obama-administration-always-overreacts-accidents-like-charleston-shooting/) it was an “accident”, and that Roof must have been on drugs… He did not say the killer must\* have been on drugs, but thanks for making me defend an idiot like Perry. But he did say it was “a crime of hate.” \*He said he “may” have been on drugs. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/52 "2015-06-19T20:00:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You know how, when primed properly, poll respondents will say something of almost arbitrary extremity about the candidates they don’t favor? Like if you say who had a worse policy on human rights, (current president) or Pol Pot, some percentage of people who don’t like the president will say it’s him even though they can’t _possibly_ really believe that? They don’t really mean it, they just treat it as if they’ve been given the opportunity to participate in a referendum on the current president: pro or con. You see the same stuff on this message board, even - even in one edge case, plenty of people will step up to defend something unsupportable not because they really believe it, but because they see it as a contest, and why give the other side the satisfaction? > > I think it’s just that phenomenon in effect. Regardless of the extremity of the response in context, these guys, who are participating in a highly charged contest to be the best conservative, have been given the opportunity to comment on “Racism: big deal or no?”. It’s politically valuable to say no. It’s a tiny concession to the other side to say “yes, in this case, clearly, what we’re dealing with is a racist piece of shit,” but it’s a concession. It’s one point for them. You can expect better gains from “sure, that’s what it looks like, but hey,” because you’re not being a piece of shit yourself, but you’re also not siding with the opposition. That makes a lot of sense to me (which is probably a bad sign for you). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/53 "2015-06-19T20:09:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m still not seeing anyone saying that they doubted it was racism. Can someone quote who is saying that? > > If you want to complain that they are not using the word “racism”, that’s one thing. But it seems to me it’s as silly a complaint as when the Republicans go all ape-shit if “terrorism” isn’t explicitly called out. Did you put me on ignore all of a sudden or something? I’ve clarified that you may consider the question instead to be a related but technically different one, as follows: “I am asking why there is any felt need at all to say anything other than ‘yup, guy’s a racist’ when asked ‘was this guy acting on racist motivations.’” ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/54 "2015-06-19T20:09:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > We can’t be sure there was a racial motive. I mean, a white supremacist did shoot up a black church _while saying he was doing it for racist reasons_, but let’s not jump to conclusions. And were the comments in question said before or after that piece of news came out ? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/55 "2015-06-19T20:19:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He did not say the killer must\* have been on drugs, but thanks for making me defend an idiot like Perry. > [@Rick Perry](#): > > It seems to me–again, with out having all the details about this one–these individuals have been medicated. I’ll grant you, he’s such an incoherent speaker that his point is almost entirely opaque. Just before that he’s talking about how more people were killed in Paris than here, and just after that he’s talking about the VA giving opioids to veterans. And the word “accident” is so appallingly stupid that I’m pretty sure he meant “incident”, because that at least would just be a shitty slip-up. I do think there’s a significant difference between cases like this and the Norwegian mass-killer, on the one hand, and Al Qaeda on the other. Both can fall under the “terrorist” label, but the former killers appear by all signs to be operating alone, certainly influenced by some other nasty motherfuckers but not actually working with them. Al Qaeda has training camps, websites, magazines, PR officials. Al Qaeda has infrastructure. I don’t know if the proper distinction is to call the latter “terrorists” and the former something else. Certainly both have similar abhorrent ideologies and methods. But it’s not inappropriate to talk about their differences as well. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/56 "2015-06-19T20:20:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you want to complain that they are not using the word “racism”, that’s one thing. But it seems to me it’s as silly a complaint as when the Republicans go all ape-shit if “terrorism” isn’t explicitly called out. I can agree with what you are saying. Both sides parse their language to suit their own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/57 "2015-06-19T20:24:34Z")
Once again, the usual suspects show up in a thread and compete for the title of most willfully obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/58 "2015-06-19T20:31:59Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > And were the comments in question said before or after that piece of news came out ? Some were before and some were after. Jeb Bush’s comments were after. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/59 "2015-06-19T20:38:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But he did say it was “a crime of hate.” The right-wing narrative seems to be that it was an anti-Christian hate crime, so calling it a hate crime in the abstract does not tell you whether a particular person is following that narrative or not. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956/60 "2015-06-19T20:39:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What I find curious is why this isn’t being trumpeted as a terrorist attack, which is of course what it is. > > Two guys killed some people in Boston and the word “terrorist” is used in basically every story about them. This guy kills nine people and the news outlets generally do not call him a terrorist. Yet by any logical standard that is precisely what he is. The KKK, a terrorist organization with a long history of murder, is actually permitted to hold rallies. I wonder what would happen if al-Qaida decided to have a parade. > > Indeed, if you do a search for “South Carolina terrorist attack” almost every hit is people debating whether that term should be used or not - not just using it. > > But “Terrorist” has to be applied to the threat the government WANTS you to worry about, and they want you worried about Muslims, not white supremacists. I’m puzzled by the need to label anything a terrorist attack. As I recall Fort Hood, the chorus from the right was that Obama was negligent in not calling it terrorism. I’m not sure how things are magically made better by calling it that but apparently the president’s job whenever multiple people are killed is to sprint to a microphone and utter the word terrorism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-any-mainstream-figures-doubt-or-deny-racism-is-involved-in-the-charleston-shooting/722956.md?page=4)