# Why do Asian women tend to lack muscle? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 12, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886 "2018-10-12T23:44:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/21 "2018-10-13T14:40:18Z")
OP ignores a basic scientific principle: the idea of controls. Compare people of Asian descent born in Asia vs born elsewhere. And compare 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation people of Asian descent in non-Asian cultures. In the US because of the policies that discriminated heavily against immigration from East Asian nations until historically recently, this is made a bit harder but not impossible. And indeed, the [early evidence](https://www.nature.com/articles/0801365) is that for foreign born Asian Americans, BMI increases with the length of residence in the US compared to their peers who did not immigrate. And the effect appears more pronounced for those born in the US than immigrants. And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn’t like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that’s something we’re seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries. Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That’s due solely to improved nutrition. TLDR; comparing apples to oranges is a mug’s game. > [@CairoCarol](#): > > What the parents ate didn’t change their genes. Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of [epigenetic effects](https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177) to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to _their_ children. Their genes aren’t themselves changed but the _expression_ of them definitely can be. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/22 "2018-10-13T15:05:58Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of [epigenetic effects](https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177) to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to _their_ children. Their genes aren’t themselves changed but the _expression_ of them definitely can be. The evidence is extremely weak. The overhyped studies that purport to show this are poorly controlled, Lamarckian transgenerational epigenetic inheritance has never been demonstrated in humans. It has been shown in mice in certain circumstances, so perhaps it _can_ happen in humans. Never say never in biology. But there’s no evidence whatsoever that it’s a significant process. Epigenetics has been a hot field, and is perenially overhyped in the press, not least because it enables the tedious “Darwin was wrong” type headlines. Part of the problem is that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance (Lamarckism) is often conflated with the role of epigenetics with straightforward gene regulation, switching genes on an off in response to the environment. The former has not been proven, the latter is blindingly obvious. _Of course_ we respond to the environment. The lead in to that article makes exactly that error, as these articles always do: > [@](#): > > Why do some identical twins look so different from each other? Could your eating habits during puberty have an impact on the genetic makeup of your grandkids? These are just two of the startling questions raised by the science of epigenetics… The blindingly obvious: _Of course_ identical twins can look different, if they live in completely different environments, eat different diets as a trivial example. Who could possibly imagine that gene expression doesn’t respond to environmental cues? Conflated with the unproven: Could your eating habits during puberty have an impact on the genetic makeup of your grandkids? Perhaps, but there’s no convincing evidence for this. (And of course it’s misstated, since he’s talking about epigenetics he should say gene _expression_, not genetic makeup.) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/23 "2018-10-13T15:23:23Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No, this is anything but “the best answer”. This is exactly the type of racial stereotyping I’m refering to. No, that is a sarcastic post making fun of the OP. Buy yourself a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/24 "2018-10-13T17:45:19Z")
**Mod Hat On** Discussions of moderator actions belong in ATMB. Insulting a mod gets you kicked out of the thread. Go post somewhere else. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > No, that is a sarcastic post making fun of the OP. Buy yourself a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/25 "2018-10-13T18:52:28Z")
Before speculating on why Asian women lack muscle relative to American women, wouldn’t it be a good idea to see if this is in fact true? Does anyone have any data beyond a few pics and anecdotes? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/26 "2018-10-13T19:26:41Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Before speculating on why Asian women lack muscle relative to American women, wouldn’t it be a good idea to see if this is in fact true? Does anyone have any data beyond a few pics and anecdotes? [Old study but still, yes.](https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/60/1/23/4732211) Asians, and more so female Asians, on average have less muscle mass than do their White counterparts. They are [more likely to hit what gets called “skinny fat”](https://www.medicaldaily.com/asian-americans-more-prone-obesity-despite-lower-weights-hidden-risks-being-skinny-fat-260453) with normal BMI but relatively high body fat percentage (and more likely to have more visceral fat). > [@](#): > > Although Asians had lower BMI, they were fatter than whites of both sexes. The correlations between fat% and BMI varied by BMI and sex and race. Comparisons in anthropometry show that Asians had more subcutaneous fat than did whites and had different fat distributions from whites. Asians had more upper-body subcutaneous fat than did whites. The magnitude of differences between the two races was greater in females than in males. > [@](#): > > Although phenotypic body types may range greatly among Asians, a broad racial category encompassing some two-thirds of the world population, “apple-shaped” bodies are more common among people with Asian descent. They’re also more likely to pack excess fat between and around the organs, with abdominal fat linked to obesity-related health risks such as heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and inflammatory diseases. [More recent](http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/jobes/2013/790654.pdf) (pdf) - Asian females are a “special subgroup” in regards to higher percent body fat (which also reads as less percent body muscle mass) while having lower BMIs. So it’s not a completely crazy observation. The answers given, a mix of ethnic biological predisposition to certain body builds and an even more ingrained female cultural beauty standard of skinny as opposed to curvy, seem likely right to me. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/27 "2018-10-13T19:29:47Z")
Thanks, **DSeid**. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/28 "2018-10-14T01:14:19Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > But, my Thai wife and her “sister” Noi both held world weight lifting records. This was in the masters division (over 40 ) and they competed against men. Wifey has very broad shoulders and cannot get clothes to fit. She deadlifted well over 800 lbs, her sister has done 900 and still holds the record. Noi is the winningest women in all around weight lifting. They both weighed 115 lbs when competing. My wife was often accused of using steroids, but she was born that way. Her youngest son takes after her, he is a dead ringer for Vin Diesel. > > Here is Noi when she was lifting, large thighs for that 900 lb deadlift! She looks slim today. > > [Noi Phumchaona – USAWA](http://usawa.com/tag/noi-phumchaona/) > > Dennis I’m not sure what to make of this post no woman has ever lifted anything close to a 900 pound deadlift. From my googling the record female deadlift is 573lbs and the male record is slightly over 1102 lbs. Where are you coming up with this information? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/29 "2018-10-14T05:35:35Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Fair enough. I’ll see your 7 years and raise you with my 17, which suggest a somewhat more nuanced view than what you offer. I’m not saying your experience is wrong (though I have to admit, anyone who says they married a “girl” loses a few points … did you really marry a child, or an actual woman; I’m guessing the latter despite your language). But my personal experience is no less valid than yours, and I don’t reach the same conclusions. HA! I’ll see your 17 years and raise you with my 30! Wait? Can it really be that I’ve lived in Asia for 30 years now? Yup. Damn. And it’s been something like 38 years since I first came here. Anyway, I agree with you on your points, including the question of marrying a “girl.” That made me cringe. Concerning the claim that Asian women stay away from sweets, East Asian women love their desserts (for some reason men aren’t supposed to enjoy sweets) as well but portions are quite different in the US. My kids were knocked away with the size of the ice cream serving in America. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn’t like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that’s something we’re seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries. > > Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That’s due solely to improved nutrition. This is frankly absurd. So cite? Articles on the Net show a difference in several inches, not a foot. [Are North Koreans really three inches shorter than South Koreans? - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17774210) From here: [Height Chart of Men and Women in Different Countries | Disabled World](https://www.disabled-world.com/calculators-charts/height-chart.php) Country, …male height …female height… sampled age North Korea 165.6 cm (5 ft 5 in) 154.9 cm (5 ft 1 in) 20-29 South Korea 170.7 cm (5 ft 7 in) 157.4 cm (5 ft 2 in) 20+ Note that the claim that it’s due to an “improved nutrition” is also incorrect. The heights and weights in North Korea are decreasing because of insufficient food now compared to before. [QUOTE=DSeid;21265048So it’s not a completely crazy observation. The answers given, a mix of ethnic biological predisposition to certain body builds and an even more ingrained female cultural beauty standard of skinny as opposed to curvy, seem likely right to me.[/QUOTE] Interestingly, my experience has been that the ingrained female beauty standard of skinny comes more from women than men. I have middle school students who are thin and complain about how fat they are. Adolescent boys are more likely to talk about video games. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/30 "2018-10-14T15:00:11Z")
Bro…they don’t even lift? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/31 "2018-10-14T15:33:27Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I’m not sure what to make of this post no woman has ever lifted anything close to a 900 pound deadlift. From my googling the record female deadlift is 573lbs and the male record is slightly over 1102 lbs. Where are you coming up with this information? Might not be a deadlift, actually a “hip lift”, but [here’s a 2000 cite](https://www.outsideonline.com/1835651/outside-online-archives): > [@](#): > > NOI PHUMCHAONA WEIGHS 116 pounds but she can lift 911. At last year’s U.S. All-Round Weightlifting National Championships, the flyweight from Thailand (by way of Cleveland, Ohio) lifted eight times her body weight, clinching her 12th consecutive gold-medal in the women’s hip lift by hoisting almost a thousand pounds suspended on a waist belt, outclassing many male competitors. Easy for those who don’t lift to mistakenly think of that as a deadlift. Still dang impressive! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/32 "2018-10-14T17:15:01Z")
Why did the OP pick just pictures of slim attractive women? The nation’s obesity epidemic continues to grow, led by an alarming increase among women. For the first time, more than 4 in 10 U.S. women are obese, according to new government health statistics. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/33 "2018-10-14T23:06:24Z")
OTOH, Japan has a problem with middle age men becoming more overweight in contrast to women who are not as much. Rates of obesity are still quite low for both sexs. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/34 "2018-10-15T13:55:46Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > OP ignores a basic scientific principle: the idea of controls. > > Compare people of Asian descent born in Asia vs born elsewhere. And compare 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation people of Asian descent in non-Asian cultures. In the US because of the policies that discriminated heavily against immigration from East Asian nations until historically recently, this is made a bit harder but not impossible. > > And indeed, the [early evidence](https://www.nature.com/articles/0801365) is that for foreign born Asian Americans, BMI increases with the length of residence in the US compared to their peers who did not immigrate. And the effect appears more pronounced for those born in the US than immigrants. > > And for those born two generations or more ago, Asia wasn’t like Europe or the US. Food, while available in sufficient quantities in most countries, was hardly plentiful for everybody. And that’s something we’re seeing now. With the increasing availability of western style fast food, BMI is increasing in Asian countries. > > Take a look at South vs North Korea. The average height of a South Korean male is almost a foot greater than his North Korean counterpart. That’s due solely to improved nutrition. > > TLDR; comparing apples to oranges is a mug’s game. > > Well, actually, there is increasing evidence of [epigenetic effects](https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177) to the point the expression of genes of children born decades after some traumatic effect (drought, famine, etc) can be affected and passed down even to _their_ children. Their genes aren’t themselves changed but the _expression_ of them definitely can be. I lived in Japan in the 1980’s and the majority of adults were definitely not overweight, but the kids were beginning to become so. Quite a few tubby little kiddies around town. I gather that the problem follows the other Asian countries as they get affluent. As for build, east Asians tend to have a lighter build and with less pronounced differences between the sexes, aka more androgynous. But note that word “tend”. There are also regional differences; northern Chinese can be very big and muscular looking. As for the other Asians, there is a huge variety on the Indian subcontinent. The Sikhs in particular are definitely not androgynous. Strength? They may not always look muscular, but they can be very strong. As for genetic factors from famine, etc., I seem to recall that the kids of those where directly affected by the “hunger winter” in the Netherlands in early 1945 were born smaller and with some health problems, but curiously, some of this was retained in their children. But I would suggest that you Google that for the exact details. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/35 "2018-10-15T14:15:25Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Nope, not turning this into a voyeuristic exercise. Let’s see how this thread progresses, but I’m very wary of both racial stereotyping and a deconstruction of women’s physiques. > > If too many posts cross either of those lines, I’ll have to close it. > > No, this is anything but “the best answer”. This is exactly the type of racial stereotyping I’m refering to. The original post was offensive in the way that so many posts on the Dope are, in that they pay some superficial lip service to a “question” when the real point is to discuss the attractiveness of young women, with links to pictures. Seems like if men want to discuss women’s bodies as objects – which apparently many really really really want to do, since they try so hard to work it into every conversation – they should go do that on a forum which does not purport to cater to all genders. My post “best answer” in response to the tapeworm comment was meant to indicate applause for derailing the hidden intent of the OP very succinctly. If it was taken amiss, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/36 "2018-10-15T14:24:14Z")
As **Riemann** pointed out above, the studies for subsequent generation epigenetic transmission of the impacts of various sorts of trauma is not quite as solid as media hype makes it out to be. [One example here](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/.premium-doubts-arising-about-claimed-epigenetics-of-holocaust-trauma-1.5466710) of how doubts come up after the initial attention and get less play. Teasing things out is … complicated. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/37 "2018-10-15T14:30:41Z")
> [@Contemplation](#): > > On a college campus, you’ll notice that is more common for an American girl to have a body like this: You did not choose the second and third picture for anything having to do with muscle. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/38 "2018-10-15T14:31:22Z")
To me it appears like the customs see to value a very child like appearance of Asian women. Small frame, small feet, small breast, and low visible muscularity would be part of that. If this has held for centuries, which with the custom of foot binding seems to be the case, perhaps genetics have shifted in that direction with the desirability of a partner pushing natural selection. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/39 "2018-10-16T12:27:36Z")
The one set of pictures is overweight, the other is not. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886/40 "2018-10-16T17:34:36Z")
The women in photos 2 & 3 don not have all natural buttocks. #2 appears to be a BBL, #3 is most likely implants because of the high conical projection. #1 is the only natural butt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-asian-women-tend-to-lack-muscle/822886.md?page=1)