# Why do AT-ATs trip so easily? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 8, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264 "2004-10-08T20:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/81 "2004-10-13T21:01:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well it probably does provide some protection, even if it’s just against shrapnel. And as far as I’m concerned, some is better than none when someone is shooting at me. American soldiers wear body armor but they aren’t invincible in it. Yeah, but I’d think Kevlar would be somewhat useful againest pistol ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/82 "2004-10-13T21:04:01Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > What is retcon? Geekspeak for “retroactive continuity.” Comes from comic books, originally. It refers to when a long-running franchise makes up some new power/background/personality/whatever for a character, or for the setting in general, and then pretends that the character/setting has always had that attribute, even if directly contradicted by something earlier in the series. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/83 "2004-10-13T21:11:11Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Might want to check your reference. How about :[ul][li]The North Eastern Loggers’ Association Handbook (pub. 1991).[_]“Effect of acorn size on development of northern red oak 1-0 seedlings”, P.P. Kormanik, S.S. Sung, T.L. Kormanik, S.E. Schlarbaum, and S.J. Zarnoch.[_][Photomicronigraphs of the Wye Oak](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:lDSSZ5voqLsJ:www.dnr.state.md.us/forests/publications/wyeoak/preservation_analysis.pdf+red+oak+weight+14.8&hl=en) (Mechanical Properties table, Red Oak group section, page 15)[_]JAG Engineering Inc. website, [Weight of Materials](http://www.jagmold.com/pattern/weights.htm)[/ul][/li][quote] That makes red oak more than three times as dense as water_. Seeing as oak makes such excellent pirate ships (though strictly speaking _white_ oak is preferred by 4 out of 5 buccaneers) I don’t think that is the case. I’m sure my mission style sofa will float as well as the _Raging Queen_. [/quote] You can make a ship out of concrete. The destroyer I served on was definitely made out of a substance substantially denser than water. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/84 "2004-10-13T21:13:16Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > As for stom trooper armor it appears that it can only be penetrated under two very specific circumtances: when the incident angle is 450º or when the plot requires it. Not to pick on you two posts in a row, but how do you get an incident angle of 450º?? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/85 "2004-10-13T21:47:05Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > Not to pick on you two posts in a row, but how do you get an incident angle of 450º?? Bouncing the shot off the wall, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/86 "2004-10-13T21:55:28Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I suppose I’m the only one whose gonna mistake the thread title for wondering why Ace/Ten and Ace/Ten suited make a set on the flop “so easily?” **Kid** , I think it’s about time you step … away … from … the … poker-table. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/87 "2004-10-13T22:00:15Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > Not to pick on you two posts in a row, but how do you get an incident angle of 450º?? \ :rolleyes: Don’t worry in the slightest about picking on me. In a galaxy, even one far, far away etc., where faster than light travel is routine I should think that the geometry of a 450º incident angle should be trivial. In other words I was making an ironic comment about trying to analyze the logical and physical inconsistencies in a fairy tale such as our beloved _Star Wars_. I was also trying to make a joke with the pirate ship remark. I served in the US navy and do understand that ships can be made of substances that are more dense that water. I stand by the statement that oak is not one of them. Except for a few extremely dense species virtually all wood floats in water, even when cut as green logs. This leads me to logically conclude that wood is made from witches but that discussion is for another thread. The experiments of Archimedes lead me to further conclude that substances that float in water are **less** dense than water which has a specific gravity of 1. Thank you for providing me with a link to show how incorrect I am. The JAG Engineering site shows red oak with a specific gravity of .66 (my source said .63) at 41 pounds per cubic foot which works out to 3.4 pounds per board foot. I said that red oak was about 3 pounds per board foot. Boy is that embarassing! :smack: You may recall that you based your calculations on red oak weighting 14.8 pounds per board foot. Please feel free to pick on me more if you feel I need it. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/88 "2004-10-14T01:06:58Z")
As **Padeye** pointed out above, I should have used a little critical thinking on my numbers. :smack: Of course, red oak could not be that dense. I found another site that quotes the US Department of Agriculture giving a weight of 838 pounds for a red oak log that is 16" by 8’. With a base surface area of 201 sq. inches, the volume is roughly 19,296 cu.in. That makes the density just over half an ounce per cubic inch. Water is about 0.57 ounces per cubic inch (or did I get that wrong, too?). Kudos to **Padeye** for thinking instead of laboriously calculating silly things with faulty data. :o ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/89 "2004-10-14T01:18:21Z")
Guys, you are both forgetting something, these are **Star Wars Trees**. You need to factor in the force. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/90 "2004-10-14T01:23:48Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > Guys, you are both forgetting something, these are **Star Wars Trees**. You need to factor in the force. I know this sounds like reaching, but… they really _are_ Star Wars trees. They aren’t redwoods, although they happen to look exactly like redwoods. They’re plant life indigenous to a remote planet in an entirely seperate galaxy than ours: they could very well have the mass and density of lead, for all we know. Which, of course, makes a bunch of stone-age, three foot teddy bears with poor physical co-ordination chopping them down, dragging them all over a trackless forest, and dangling them from other trees even more :dubious:. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/91 "2004-10-14T04:38:45Z")
Well, what I’ve not seen considered about the trees is the velocity they are travelling. The sheer weight is just one factor. Getting hit with two massive tree trunks on either side moving at a good clip would certainly seem effective at destroying a vehicle with thin, flat faced armor. As for the Ewoks moving the tree trunks, I’m going to have to assume that the Rebel forces helped. I don’t remember the time frame between the Ewoks agreeing to help and the battle but perhaps it was enough to set up the traps. Maybe Luke used the force to move the trees up there. So we have AT-ATs that are massive mobile walking tanks which only have relatively minor guns facing forward and no other defenses. Where the hell are the gunners on the top, sides and back shooting at everything moving and flying? Building something that large and mounting two guns which only fire forward(and the arc the head can traverse) makes zero sense. Beyond that, why the hell make the thing walk? If it steps in a hole or on too steep of a slope, it’s doomed. If some silly pilot was smart enough to tie a cable around the legs, it’s doomed. Of course there is no need for a pilot to be able to shoot out a cable from the back of a fighter but that’s beside the point. We need to worry about everything! In addition, we have AT-ST that can be destroyed by 1. Tree trunks swinging at them 2. Trees rolling under them forcing them to trip. 3. Anyone who decides to swing over to them because the hatch doesn’t lock Here is a tip for Imperial forces, bring a few Bradley fighting vehicles with chain guns attached to the top and start spraying the woods when you see the first teddy bear holding a spear. The Bradleys even have tracks so they can roll over logs. Better yet, get a couple [flame thrower](http://www.grunts.net/album/usmc/usmc41.html) tanks and hose the woods down with napalm. They also have tracks and have to be much cheaper to manufacture than big lumbering two legged walking things that shouldn’t be in the woods anyway. After the woods stop burning you can have the crispy Ewoks for dinner as a bonus. yeeeeeeeeees, I know this is Star Wars but damnit, I deserve the right to nitpick along with everyone else!!! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/92 "2004-10-14T05:04:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which, of course, makes a bunch of stone-age, three foot teddy bears with poor physical co-ordination chopping them down, dragging them all over a trackless forest, and dangling them from other trees even more :dubious:. Ah, but you forget, these are _Star Wars_ “teddy bears” you’re talking about. Just because they happen to resemble Terran bears doesn’t mean they are the same as Terran bears – for all we know, Ewoks have superior muscles and/or skeletons that enable them to bench-press 800 lb. loads effortlessly (just think of Earth orangutans for an example). Omigawd… did I just defend the Ewoks? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/93 "2004-10-14T05:12:43Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > In addition, we have AT-ST that can be destroyed by > > 1. Tree trunks swinging at them > 2. Trees rolling under them forcing them to trip. > 3. Anyone who decides to swing over to them because the hatch doesn’t lock Actually, number three should read, “Because your AT-ST crews are too stupid to not open the hatch when there’s an enemy standing on top of your vehicle.” ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/94 "2004-10-14T05:19:00Z")
The majestic towering leadwoods of the forest moon of Endor. I guess that would be about 54lbs per board foot but you can cut it down with a soldering iron. That’ll smash an AT-AT. Smash it good. This of course makes lumberjack duties of the furry little freaks that much more difficult but you can’t have it both ways. Sure you can, in fact it’s a requirement. If you try to impose logical consistency on Star Wars the whole thing collapses. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/95 "2004-10-14T06:15:43Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > The majestic towering leadwoods of the forest moon of Endor. I guess that would be about 54lbs per board foot but you can cut it down with a soldering iron. I heard there was a forest fire on Endor. Thousands drowned. ---
**Author:** ![Purd\_Werfect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Purd\_Werfect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purd_Werfect)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/96 "2004-10-14T06:42:40Z")
The reason they are so clumsy is obviously because they never took dance lessons. Just another example of over-inflated machismo leading to a downfall. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/97 "2004-10-14T06:46:56Z")
> [@The Long Road](#): > > So we have AT-ATs that are massive mobile walking tanks which only have relatively minor guns facing forward and no other defenses. Where the hell are the gunners on the top, sides and back shooting at everything moving and flying? I dug up [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=117351&page=1&pp=50&highlight=AT-AT) from a ways back, talking about the Battle of Hoth mostly. I said either the AT-ATs should be much more heavily armed, or the Empire should have fielded the gunships and walkers from Episode II instead for more mobility. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/98 "2004-10-14T10:14:10Z")
I’ve been thinking. I think I saw an advert in the 1980s for a toy AT-AT where the side opened and the thing was full of troops. I may be wrong but wouldn’t that explain quite a lot? Ah, who cares, it’s Life Day. And you’re all an important part of my life too! Take it away, Leia! ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/99 "2004-10-14T13:36:24Z")
**KidC** : > [@](#): > > I suppose I’m the only one whose gonna mistake the thread title for wondering why Ace/Ten and Ace/Ten suited make a set on the flop “so easily?” [Playing poker online as I type this:] Strictly speaking, it’s a “set” if you have a pocket pair and a third card of your rank hits. If the board pairs and you use only one of your cards to make three-of-a-kind, then it’s “trips”, just like the title says. Incidentally, I knew what the title was referring to, but Ace-Ten suited did cross my mind. **Re: stormtrooper armor** > [@](#): > > Well it probably does provide some protection, even if it’s just against shrapnel. And as far as I’m concerned, some is better than none when someone is shooting at me. American soldiers wear body armor but they aren’t invincible in it. That’s right. Also, the armor might provide NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) protection. So, you know, when the rebels break out the botulism and nerve gas, the empire is prepared. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264/100 "2004-10-14T13:48:03Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Ah, but you forget, these are _Star Wars_ “teddy bears” you’re talking about. Just because they happen to resemble Terran bears doesn’t mean they are the same as Terran bears – for all we know, Ewoks have superior muscles and/or skeletons that enable them to bench-press 800 lb. loads effortlessly (just think of Earth orangutans for an example). What!? like Earth bears are pussies or something? Ross, the AT-AT is, in fact, a troop transport. In a way I think it kind of makes sense. The shield generator would have prevented air attacks or orbital bombardment, forcing the Imperials to make their landing beyond the shield and approach by land. I suppose they could have landed tie fighters as well and then transport them under the shield with the AT-ATs but that would have taken time, even assuming a Star Destroyer has vehicles that could transport fighters like that. Remember that the Rebels weren’t defending Echo base, they were fighting a rear-guard delaying action so that the bulk of the troops and equipment could escape. Even with a fleet of Star Destroyers, it seems like it was very difficult to catch a ship before it went to hyperspace, so that means that a ground assault would be the best way to catch the most rebels. So really the best tactic was, in fact, to use heavy armored vehicles that could effectively ignore the air attacks, aproach within striking distance of the generator and take it out. It would have worked flawlessly except that the speeders were able to trip up the walkers with tow cables. Again referring to the SW: Battlefront game as a fairly realistic Battle of Hoth simulator, against skilled pilots the Imperials would have had a tough time on Hoth. The walkers aren’t really designed for anti-aircraft fire and stormtroopers who venture out of their transports are easy targets for strafing runs and Rebel artillery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-at-ats-trip-so-easily/268264.md?page=6)