# Why do atheists insist that atheism is a 'non-belief'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/1 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")
It seems to me that atheism is a belief about there not being a God. Granted, this is a statement of non-belief towards any deity, but the belief that there definitely is no God is a belief, just as believing that there is a God is also a belief. Both atheism and theism are based on supposed evidence found in the world (for atheists, the lack of evidence is the evidence for their position). On the other hand, agnosticism seems much more like a non-belief to me, since it does not take a stance one way or another, and avoids drawing any conclusion. Atheists, why is this logic wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/2 "2010-12-15T20:57:39Z")
Because it is not logical? Let us assume that you do not believe that Zeus and his pantheon of gods exists-what is this belief system of yours called? _Atheism is a belief system the same way bald is a hair color._ ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/3 "2010-12-15T20:58:45Z")
Who are these atheists I keep hearing about who insist it’s a non-belief? I only know the ones who insist it’s not a religion. And then religious people insist it is, just like not eating ice cream after dinner is still having dessert, and not collecting stamps is still a hobby, guys not having sex with each other is still homosexuality, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/4 "2010-12-15T21:00:26Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > guys not having sex with each other is still homosexuality, etc. Well, not having sex is pretty gay. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/5 "2010-12-15T21:01:38Z")
I have many hobbies: I don’t collect stamps. I don’t collect butterflies. I don’t rebuild classic cars. (It’s amazing that I have time for so many hobbies!) I also have many beliefs: I don’t believe in unicorns, visible, pink, or otherwise. I don’t believe in Zeus. I don’t believe in Odin. … RS ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/6 "2010-12-15T21:01:40Z")
Yet plenty of atheists still find the need to proselytize. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/7 "2010-12-15T21:05:10Z")
> [@](#): > > the belief that there definitely is no God is a belief That’s not what most atheists believe. Atheists do not believe that a god exists, and that’s all that it means. That’s a pretty weak kind of belief if is it is one. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/8 "2010-12-15T21:06:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yet plenty of atheists still find the need to proselytize. So do political parties. What does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/9 "2010-12-15T21:07:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yet plenty of atheists still find the need to proselytize. Wasn’t it more pleasant when we stayed in the closet? People could talk about us going to hell and/or being communist sympathizers and we would just be good little boys and girls and not “proselytize” in our own defense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/10 "2010-12-15T21:08:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yet plenty of atheists still find the need to proselytize. Because religion is destructive, and because the believers won’t stop relentlessly trying to push their beliefs on everyone. I lack a belief in invisible goblins too; but I don’t feel any desire to lecture people on the matter because no one is pushing Invisible Goblinism. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/11 "2010-12-15T21:10:32Z")
Well, atheism is not a Belief, as in “It has been REVEALED! There is NO GOD!! HALLELUJAH!!!” It’s more of a belief, as in “I do not believe that I can train my Labrador retriever to recite the Declaration of Independence while carrying a 200-pound dumbbell”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/12 "2010-12-15T21:20:36Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > So do political parties. What does that have to do with anything? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wasn’t it more pleasant when we stayed in the closet? People could talk about us going to hell and/or being communist sympathizers and we would just be good little boys and girls and not “proselytize” in our own defense. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because religion is destructive, and because the believers won’t stop relentlessly trying to push their beliefs on everyone. I lack a belief in invisible goblins too; but I don’t feel any desire to lecture people on the matter because no one is pushing Invisible Goblinism. I’m more atheistic than not. I would prefer everyone to keep their beliefs and non-beliefs about God to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/13 "2010-12-15T21:24:59Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > It seems to me that atheism is a belief about there not being a God. Granted, this is a statement of non-belief towards any deity, but the belief that there definitely is no God is a belief, just as believing that there is a God is also a belief. Both atheism and theism are based on supposed evidence found in the world (for atheists, the lack of evidence is the evidence for their position). > > On the other hand, agnosticism seems much more like a non-belief to me, since it does not take a stance one way or another, and avoids drawing any conclusion. > > Atheists, why is this logic wrong? Agnosticism is not lack of belief in anything. Gnosis is about knowledge - agnosticism is the position that it is impossible to know whether or not any gods exist. Atheism is the lack of belief in any gods, which also includes those who don’t just lack belief but also believe there is not gods. But the latter is a subset of the former. I may actively disbelieve in Western gods, but there are millions of gods I’ve never heard of. How can I actively not believe in them? I can certainly lack belief, that is easy. And just to be clear, saying I don’t believe in a god is different from saying I know there is no god. That claim is hard to support, give the millions of proposed gods, many very fuzzy, and many unfalsifiable in principle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/14 "2010-12-15T21:28:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yet plenty of atheists still find the need to proselytize. Yeah, I can hardly get out my door in the morning without some atheist on my doorstep handing out brochures, and I can hardly drive down the street without seeing atheist propaganda on atheist meeting halls. And, go to any college campus, and there is some ragged atheist telling you that you are going to be in big trouble unless you stop believing right this second. And the six or so atheist books in my library are about to crowd out the six shelves full of religious books. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/15 "2010-12-15T21:31:09Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > guys not having sex with each other is still homosexuality, etc. OMG, I never knew this. Excuse me while I go spruce up my wardrobe and buy some CDs of Broadway show tunes … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/16 "2010-12-15T21:32:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And the six or so atheist books in my library are about to crowd out the six shelves full of religious books. Could our library borrow a couple of your atheist books? Ours keep “disappearing” without being checked out. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/17 "2010-12-15T21:41:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could our library borrow a couple of your atheist books? Ours keep “disappearing” without being checked out. Perhaps they disappear because someone doesn’t believe in them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/18 "2010-12-15T21:42:54Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > It seems to me that atheism is a belief about there not being a God. Granted, this is a statement of non-belief towards any deity, but the belief that there definitely is no God is a belief, just as believing that there is a God is also a belief. This comes up fairly often in theological debates, and generally what the questioner has in mind is to establish that secularism is essentially a kind of religion, and so there can be no such thing as a separation of church and state so we might as well start dismantling this foundational principle of our republic. Is that where you’re going with this? > [@Ludovic](#): > > Well, not having sex is pretty gay. Not as long as it’s not men you’re not having sex with. I think. Wait, I think I better draw a Venn diagram… ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/19 "2010-12-15T21:44:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m more atheistic than not. I would prefer everyone to keep their beliefs and non-beliefs about God to themselves. In an ideal world where people “live and let live” I’d be happy to oblige. Unfortunately, people allow their beliefs to impact how they vote and how they act, and that has an impact on others. Gays are prevented from marrying, women are prevented from exercising control of their bodies via abortion, suffering terminally ill people are stopped from putting an end to their suffering through physician assisted suicide. People in poverty and AIDS stricken third world countries are told not to use contraception. Religion allows people to ignore the suffering caused by these policies, because _this_ life is not what really matters. It’s the afterlife that goes on for eternity that really counts. There’s really no way of addressing the above mentioned things without attacking the religious beliefs that underlie them. Sorry to ruin religious folks good time, but that’s the only way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/20 "2010-12-15T21:44:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I would prefer everyone to keep their beliefs and non-beliefs about God to themselves. The believers aren’t going to, and insisting that the unbelievers do so is just requesting that they lie down to be trampled on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=2)