# Why do atheists insist that atheism is a 'non-belief'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/401 "2010-12-20T03:01:42Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I’ll also state that I cannot **know** about the IPU and FSM, but that I believe them to be extremely improbable. As such I don’t believe they exist and I will live my life in accord with that belief. > > Do you really think there is any difference whatsoever between our positions? I’ll make this even more precise, using definintions from [MW](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know). I cannot _ **know** _[1] about the IPU and FSM, but I _ **know** _[2] they don’t exist. [1] _know_ - to perceive directly : have direct cognition of [2] _know_ - to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/402 "2010-12-20T03:03:38Z")
From [Atheist Alliance International](http://www.atheistalliance.org/atheism): > [@](#): > > Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. > … > In Western culture, atheists are frequently assumed to be exclusively irreligious or unspiritual. However, atheism also figures in certain religious and spiritual belief systems, such as some forms of Buddhism, that do not advocate belief in gods. And their [values](http://www.atheistalliance.org/about-aai/about-us/values): > [@](#): > > 1. Reason. Reason and cooperation are essential to meeting the challenges that confront humankind. > > 2. Compassion. Human compassion and empathy are crucial to improving the human condition. > > 3. Purpose. The life that all creatures have is precious and has value, as this life is the only life we know we will have. > > 4. Empiricism. Our ethics and values are evidence-based. We rely on what we can sense and measure in the natural world. We make our conclusions based on the best evidence, and change our conclusions accordingly as new evidence becomes known. > > 5. Science. Science is the best tool we have for seeking truth and understanding our world. > > 6. Knowledge. We value knowledge and hold the endeavor to increase it as best we can in order to pursue the truths about our world to be one of the noblest efforts one can make; and any and all efforts to stifle or denigrate knowledge and learning to be immoral. > > 7. Progress. We believe in modernity and progress and the ability of humankind to develop a better world based on reason. > > 8. Freedom. We hold that all people have the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; and that all people are entitled to freedom of conscience. We support the values outlined in the International Convention of Human Rights as inalienable human rights. > > 9. Ethics. We believe that ethics and morality evolve over time as we better understand our world and the consequences we cause in it. > > 10. Responsibility. We are responsible for humane interaction with other people, other animals and for the preservation of our habitable planet. Even though atheism can simply be “the absence of belief that any deities exist”, it certainly seems that there can be many values and beliefs that accompany that position. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/403 "2010-12-20T03:30:01Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > Which, you believe Zeus isn’t real, or that you are still holding out for more evidence before making that call, just in case? I believe that Zeus, Cernunnos, and YaHuWaHu aren’t real. I believe that the things explained by them are adequately explained by a different model. The things I believe are incompatible with the existence of any of those dudes. However, if I encountered other evidence, it’s possible I could be convinced otherwise. Doing so would require abandoning some of my current beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/404 "2010-12-20T03:30:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Have I said that atheism is “a belief”? I don’t know; it’s been a long thread. But the title and OP is about the implication that atheism is a belief, and your arguments seemed to be about supporting that side of the argument. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe I have: rather, I’ve suggested that most atheists adopt a suite of beliefs that contradict the beliefs of most theists. Well, I conceded earlier that there are certain philosophies that are probably represented disproportionately among atheists. But they aren’t fundamental to atheism. A favourite tactic, particularly on Creationist sites, is to imagine that everyone interprets the world a particular way and that atheists begin with beliefs about naturalism and the like. It isn’t true. In my own case, I make no absolute claims about reality. The important thing for me is to see things for how they are: if that means accepting harsh realities, so be it. If it means accepting we don’t know something, that’s fine too. And if it meant discovering that there really is a magical / spiritual element to this reality, I would probably be quite pleased, but I haven’t seen a shread of support for the notion, versus good reason to suppose it’s a human delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/405 "2010-12-20T03:35:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t know; it’s been a long thread. > But the title and OP is about the implication that atheism is a belief, and your arguments seemed to be about supporting that side of the argument. The argument has more than two sides, IMO :). > [@](#): > > Well, I conceded earlier that there are certain philosophies that are probably represented disproportionately among atheists. > But they aren’t fundamental to atheism. If most NASCAR fans are republican, that doesn’t make NASCAR political. That’s true. I’d venture a guess, however, that a disproportionate number of NASCAR fans find automobiles aesthetically pleasing. > [@](#): > > A favourite tactic, particularly on Creationist sites, is to imagine that everyone interprets the world a particular way and that atheists begin with beliefs about naturalism and the like. It isn’t true. I’m not sure exactly what you’re talking about here; I may never have encountered this argument. Could you link me to an example of someone making it? > [@](#): > > In my own case, I make no absolute claims about reality. > The important thing for me is to see things for how they are: if that means accepting harsh realities, so be it. If it means accepting we don’t know something, that’s fine too. I don’t make any absolute claims either. Indeed, for me part of the appeal of a rational position is its self-limitation: AFAICT rationalism cannot recommend itself above, say Creationism, because rationalism recognizes you can’t prove things by assuming the truth of that which you set out to prove. Creationism, not bound by logic, suffers no such limitation on its hubris. That said, I’m very happy with my rationalist beliefs, and I think I build my entire rationalist edifice on a set of core beliefs (that there’s an objective reality, etc.) I suspect that a great number of atheists do the same thing, and that those core beliefs are as intimately related to their atheism as a NASCAR fan’s appreciation of automobiles is related to their fandom. ---
**Author:** ![Knigel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Knigel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knigel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/406 "2010-12-20T04:03:09Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I evaluate things and make my call. I’ve been wrong before, and I’m sure I’ll be wrong again. > > Sometimes I don’t know enough to make that call, but with Zeus, I’ll step out on a limb and say I don’t believe he is real. > > I think well greater than 99.99999% of the things I believe to be true are based on hearsay. (Or readwrite.) I believe George Washington was our first president. I believe the Roman empire once dominated Italy. I believe several men walked on the moon. Lots more stuff. I have no first hand knowledge of these facts, nor know anyone who has. I still believe them to be true. > > I have no problem disbelieving that Zeus is a real entity. I’m not holding out for more evidence before making that call.. (I’m perfectly capable of saying “I was wrong” if some huge dude comes down and starts throwing lightning bolts around.) > > You really have trouble making that call since it might be wrong and Zeus might be real? You believe that to be the more rational position? I too rely on hearsay; however, it does not mean I have to accept everything without thinking about it. I try to remind myself not to jump to conclusions. Cognitive processing is based on heuristics, so I’m prone to the mistakes of quick and dirty short cuts. The thing is that I do not need to disbelieve the existence of Zeus. I do not need to go that far. I need evidence to begin forming that belief. I can have a belief that the person preaching about Zeus being real is a wack job without having a belief that there is no Zeus. I only believe that this individual is not qualified to provide evidence. I do not believe the the bible is qualified as evidence for a god; however, I do not need to form a belief or disbelief about the existence of god. From my understanding, propositions of “there is a god” and “there is no god” make similar assumptive errors. We have trouble proving we aren’t brains in tanks or dreaming. Even while I do not have a disbelief in any god, I can still debate people’s arguments that there is a god in the same way I can question any other wack job. We can work together to see if their beliefs are rational. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/407 "2010-12-20T04:08:08Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I believe several men walked on the moon. Lots more stuff. I have no first hand knowledge of these facts, nor know anyone who has. I still believe them to be true. Well there goes your credibility. 😃 I think atheists get annoyed when they think people are trying to compare their thoughts and beliefs to how people view religion. Is it really that important? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/408 "2010-12-20T04:10:52Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > The thing is that I do not need to disbelieve the existence of Zeus. I do not need to go that far. Certainly you don’t need to go that far. But honestly, truly, do you go that far? I know I do: the total lack of evidence for Zeus, **coupled with the mountains of evidence for a mythological/sociological explanation for the stories of Zeus** , lead me to a belief that Zeus does not exist. If all we had were a lack of evidence for Zeus, I could see where you’re coming from. But don’t you also have a belief in the history of Greek society and human society in general such that Zeus’s being a fictional entity seems like the overwhelmingly likely scenario, so overwhelmingly likely that you can’t help but believe that’s the case? I couldn’t believe in Zeus if I wanted to. The positive evidence in favor of his fictional status is far too persuasive to me. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/409 "2010-12-20T04:11:22Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Really, it sounds like you’re just making a very roundabout version of the silly old semantics argument: > > I refer to my pencil sharpener as “God”. > My pencil sharpener exists. > Ergo God exists. > > I mean, yeah, technically it’s true. But this undefined creative force of yours has absolutely none of the attributes associated with godhood, other than you appending the word “God” after it. That’s not right. I attribute him with creation! Creating everything we know. And I imbue him with the status of He who necessitates no prior cause. Those are far from minor differences. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/410 "2010-12-20T04:12:22Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > Even while I do not have a disbelief in any god, So even the invisible minor god joe who lives in my closet whose sole interaction with reality is to slightly move my shoes once every 33 years. You don’t have enough evidence one way or the other to draw any conclusion whatsoever about his existence? In the interest of not jumping to conclusions, you just can’t bring yourself to any disbelief in him? (BTW: If his existence is really gnawing at you, I guess you come come over in another 12 years to see if he really moves my shoes.) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/411 "2010-12-20T04:15:31Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I think atheists get annoyed when they think people are trying to compare their thoughts and beliefs to how people view religion. > > Is it really that important? :rolleyes: With the theist control and increasing exertion of that control of our government, it really is that important. That’s what moved me from atheism to anti-theism (or at least anti-government imposed theism). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/412 "2010-12-20T04:23:49Z")
> [@Galileo](#): > > From [Atheist Alliance International](http://www.atheistalliance.org/atheism):And their [values](http://www.atheistalliance.org/about-aai/about-us/values):Even though atheism can simply be “the absence of belief that any deities exist”, it certainly seems that there can be many values and beliefs that accompany that position. That’s right. And those values and beliefs can be _anything_ except for theism. Some in other threads here on the SD have argued that it’s synonymous with the values and beliefs of Communism. Not really close to those of the Atheist Alliance, are they? > [@sisu](#): > > I think atheists get annoyed when they think people are trying to compare their thoughts and beliefs to how people view religion. > > Is it really that important? :rolleyes: Yes, it’s important enough to at a minimum become annoyed. It’s annoying when theists pretend that our non-belief is on par with their faith based beliefs and they use it to convince the young and/or impressionable or for some other agenda. Liars are annoying. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/413 "2010-12-20T04:29:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The significance of the distinction escapes me, then. Theism is a branch of philosophy that deals with (generally) deities and their attributes (an entirely masturbatory exercise where no statement can be said to be any more or less true than any other because no means of measurement or evaluation exist), while religion is (generally) a set of ritualized practices and beliefs (that are an entirely masturbatory exercise where no statement can be said to be any more or less true than any other because no means of measurement or evaluation exist). > > It’s not a 100% correlation, since not all religions incorporate deities, but I figure close enough. > In any case, having described a creator god that has only the attributes of a creator god, what do you plan to _do_ with this notion? Or is it to remain tucked away and untouched, like one of those crystal animal statues one can buy in overpriced hobby stores? I think this is a helpful post. I’d say that all religion presupposes theism, but not all theism necessitates religion. If one is having a discussion about religion, they are necessarily within the sphere of theism. But the reverse is not true. One can have a discussion about theism and not touch on religion. Granted that last possibility id=s rare, but it can be had. That’s what I’ve been discussing all along. The God I’ve been discussing has no flavor. If he wants something, we have no idea what it is? If he is good or bad, we do not know. All that we know is that this Creator God exists, because we and everything else exists. Now, once one arrives at that branch of the decision tree, then he/she is free to ponder the particular nature of God. That’s what I mean by “flavor”. I have not tread into that territory. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/414 "2010-12-20T05:02:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, once one arrives at that branch of the decision tree, then he/she is free to ponder the particular nature of God. That’s what I mean by “flavor”. I have not tread into that territory. Even accepting your axiom that a creator god exists, how is this pondering any different from just making stuff up and seeing how well it sells? > [@sisu](#): > > At this stage I am what you may term a hopeful agnostic. So I use the teachings of religion to search for truth. And what if any truths have been found along the way? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/415 "2010-12-20T05:02:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > All that we know is that this Creator God exists, because we and everything else exists. And since this Creator God exists, we also know that the god who created the Creator God exists. In fact through simple induction we can prove that there must be an infinite chain of creator gods, each a necessary pre-condition for the existence of his successor. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/416 "2010-12-20T05:08:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even accepting your axiom that a creator god exists, how is this pondering any different from just making stuff up and seeing how well it sells? I’m not following you here. I arrive at my position as a result, not as a premise. I’m not trying to sell anything. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/417 "2010-12-20T05:11:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > And since this Creator God exists, we also know that the god who created the Creator God exists. In fact through simple induction we can prove that there must be an infinite chain of creator gods, each a necessary pre-condition for the existence of his successor. You’re assuming that a Creator God needs a cause. I don’t think he does. Because, to follow your point, while _our_ Creator God may have, in fact, been created, when you go back far enough you will find a First Cause. A God who needed no creation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/418 "2010-12-20T05:13:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re assuming that a Creator God needs a cause. I don’t think he does. Then why do you assume that the universe needs a cause? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/419 "2010-12-20T05:13:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not following you here. I arrive at my position as a result, not as a premise. I’m not trying to sell anything. I know YOU aren’t, but you said “then he/she is free to ponder the particular nature of God”, so I asked what you expect to result from this pondering by unspecified third parties and how it would be different from them just making stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/420 "2010-12-20T05:16:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, once one arrives at that branch of the decision tree, then he/she is free to ponder the particular nature of God. That’s what I mean by “flavor”. I have not tread into that territory. How and why did you arrive at that branch? And what’s the point if there is no flavour? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=22)