# Why do atheists insist that atheism is a 'non-belief'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/41 "2010-12-15T23:13:21Z")
> [@godix](#): > > As Inigo Montoya said about a different word, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. " > > [atheism –noun > > 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.]([http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism)) > > This entire thread can be boiled down to a dictionary on one side, and those who can’t read/understand a dictionary on the other. Is there a side for those who don’t read their own cites in full? 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god. \*\*2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. \*\* “Disbelief” is not a belief. If I keep my socks in the refrigerator, context does not transform them into my dinner. [QUOTE=Cagey Drifter] So as someone who is not religious at all and have no opinions on whether there is a God or not because I never think about it, I should be considered an atheist? I wouldn’t have said so. I don’t think we should call me an atheist just because we lack a proper word for someone who hasn’t thought about it. Atheism seems to necessarily suggest a stronger sentiment than a simple disinterest in the topic. [/QUOTE] There’s an explosion at the mine. One miner takes a spike through the head, and loses all sensation in the part of the brain that forms speculations and beliefs. A second miner takes a spike to the groin. After convalescing, they stop at a bar. Also at the bar is a man who has thought and studied about religion, and rejected it in any form as he understood it. The forth man, there because he enjoys debate with the third, was a celibate Catholic priest. So who is at the bar? Two atheists and two asexuals. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/42 "2010-12-15T23:13:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yeah, I guess Stalin and Mao were right after all:rolleyes: > > See it helps to consider the historical facts instead of just your idea of who atheists are and what atheism has done. And in what possible way does my telling everybody to stop trying to convince me that their beliefs are correct favor religious superstitions? I really don’t understand this compulsion to bring up Communism the minute anyone starts talking about atheism. Firstly, several posters have done very good jobs explaining why the argument is nonsense. Secondly, and I think more importantly, _who exactly is talking about Soviet Russia_? I’m concerned with the present day United States; I could care less about Stalin in this context. If Stalin comes back from the dead and starts pressuring the government to limit abortion rights because there is no god, then we can talk. Until then, it’s just an attempt to throw out scare-words to derail the conversation and, again, falsely equivocate. Incidentally, I also think this inane comparison stems from people not being able to understand that “atheism” is not a religion and that we don’t look at Stalin like Catholics do their Saints, or whatever. And stifling religious conversation automatically favors religious viewpoints. It gives them a privileged position of being unassailable and allows them to escape the scrutiny that largely causes them to crumble. As far as you in particular are concerned, I’m not sure why you don’t just avoid religious threads if they bother you. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/43 "2010-12-15T23:19:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Most believers support forcing their beliefs on others. Sorry, I’m calling bullshit on this. There is a small, vocal minority that is pushy about their religions, but you know what? I’ve some pushy atheists too. It’s a characteristic of the person, not a function of their religiosity. I had a boss who wanted to micromanage me, and another one who quietly listened to me and integrated my ideas into the company’s business strategies. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, you are wrong. Atheism fits all the facts, it is logically consistent, and it is the default position. Living a “spiritual life” on the other hand requires an outright departure into fantasyland. Speaking of which… it’s this sort of militant and aggressive attitude that makes me think that you have a belief. Your belief is rooted in your understanding of scientific theory, but why should that not be a belief too? Just because you’ve arrived at your decision through things you’ve perceived doesn’t mean you’ve perceived everything there is to perceive. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/44 "2010-12-15T23:27:34Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Actually, not all believers are prone to forcing others to believe likewise, nor are all unbelievers. Unfortunately it’s the noisy aggressive ones of both stripes that get all the attention. Noisy aggressive religious people picket the funerals of soldiers. Noisy, aggressive atheists do what? Write a few books? Send in letters to the paper? File court cases when convinced their rights have been violated? Post on message boards? Hell, when I was in Charlotte NC once the local paper said that local residents should stop mentioning god in every sentence, because they were frightening the tourists. > [@](#): > > It has always seemed to me that it takes fully as much faith to live a life based on atheism as it does to live a spiritual life of some kind. As the good [Robert Zimmerman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan) has pointed out;" Ya gotta serve _somebody_". An atheist claims the authority of science, logic, rationalism, (or simply self-interest), a believer operates on the principle that he is informed in some way by a higher conscience or a higher power. Both live their lives based on certain assumptions. That was when Mr. Zimmerman was deep in his religious period, and writing crap songs too. During a better period he had Abraham saying to God “Man, you must be putting me on.” Both believers and non-believers claim the “authority” of science, whatever that means, because it works and has been verified to the best extent possible, and they realize that its findings are provisional. You are doing it yourself by using a computer. Religion claims true authority from god, and even when they change their beliefs they claim that they always actually held them. > [@](#): > > People who act on the assumption that they are directed by a higher power can and do act badly, can be misinformed. But science and logic are not always infallible either. Science is always in flux…it discovers many truths, but no final or ultimate Truth. And most of us have faced situations that defy logic…and when logic fails you what is left? Science is never infallible. The entire structure of science is built on the fact that all experiments can be wrong, all scientists can be wrong, and that we haven’t discovered anything yet. When Luther had a new idea, the church split, and then split again and split again. Today we have many Christian sects. Who is right? There is no way of telling. When Einstein had a new idea, was there an Einsteinium scientific faction split from the Newtonian faction? Hell no. Experiments were defined to verify his predictions, they were verified, and in one generation everyone accepted relativity. That’s the difference. In science you hypothesize, predict, and test. In religion you make claims about the very nature of the universe by gosh and by golly, and if you are careless enough to make verifiable claims, and they get falsified, you tapdance around the problem. As for me, I’ve never faced a situation which defies logic - but my logic includes emotion and coincidence. Do you have an example? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/45 "2010-12-15T23:30:35Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Sorry, I’m calling bullshit on this. There is a small, vocal minority that is pushy about their religions, but you know what? I’ve some pushy atheists too. It’s a characteristic of the person, not a function of their religiosity. I had a boss who wanted to micromanage me, and another one who quietly listened to me and integrated my ideas into the company’s business strategies. > > Speaking of which… it’s this sort of militant and aggressive attitude that makes me think that you have a belief. Your belief is rooted in your understanding of scientific theory, but why should that not be a belief too? Just because you’ve arrived at your decision through things you’ve perceived doesn’t mean you’ve perceived everything there is to perceive. Hi\*\* Cagey\*\*, welcome aboard. This is like shooting sardines in a can of sardines. With a shotgun, and the can of sardines stuck on the end of the barrel. I am tempted to start arguing the other side because I tend to root for the underdog. Everyone else, I’ll make it easy for you, the proper response is ‘I only counter the arguments of people who try to convert me to their belief system. If you don’t do that I won’t criticize your beliefs and associate them with others who show no such restraint’. But now that you are in the non-religious fervor of atheism, you’ll probably forget to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/46 "2010-12-15T23:31:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, you are wrong. Atheism fits all the facts, it is logically consistent, and it is the default position. Living a “spiritual life” on the other hand requires an outright departure into fantasyland. > [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Speaking of which… it’s this sort of militant and aggressive attitude that makes me think that you have a belief. Your belief is rooted in your understanding of scientific theory, but why should that not be a belief too? Just because you’ve arrived at your decision through things you’ve perceived doesn’t mean you’ve perceived everything there is to perceive. Apropos malleable definitions, I love how this thread has already seen mention of Mao and Stalin, and still that paragraph qualifies as “militant and aggressive” somehow… ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/47 "2010-12-15T23:32:18Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Sorry, I’m calling bullshit on this. There is a small, vocal minority that is pushy about their religions, but you know what? I’ve some pushy atheists too. More false equivalence. Pretending that “pushy” religious people are the problem ignores the fact that there is a huge bloc of them in the United States who _literally_ try to shape law around their religious beliefs and not-infrequently succeed in doing so. There is _absolutely no comparison_ between that and even the “pushiest” atheists. As Voyager notes, the atheists who fall into that latter category are usually derided for having the temerity to write a book or go on a talk show. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/48 "2010-12-15T23:33:05Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Speaking of which… it’s this sort of militant and aggressive attitude that makes me think that you have a belief. Your belief is rooted in your understanding of scientific theory, but why should that not be a belief too? Just because you’ve arrived at your decision through things you’ve perceived doesn’t mean you’ve perceived everything there is to perceive. Science has nothing to do with belief because the acceptance of any scientific theory or hypothesis is provisional, and the ideal scientist is willing to reject anything which goes against the evidence. In 1875 Newton’s Laws was as much a basis of physics as the divinity of Jesus was for Christianity - yet, when the theory and evidence turned against them, the entire world of physics went to relativity in one generation. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/49 "2010-12-15T23:34:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Noisy aggressive religious people picket the funerals of soldiers. Noisy, aggressive atheists do what? Write a few books? Send in letters to the paper? File court cases when convinced their rights have been violated? Post on message boards? > > Hell, when I was in Charlotte NC once the local paper said that local residents should stop mentioning god in every sentence, because they were frightening the tourists. Right. Now tell us what happened in places like the Soviet Union and China when the majority were atheists and the minority were theists. Again, it’s a function of the people and the climate, not the belief. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/50 "2010-12-15T23:41:07Z")
> [@godix](#): > > As Inigo Montoya said about a different word, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. " > > [atheism –noun > > 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.]([http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism)) > > This entire thread can be boiled down to a dictionary on one side, and those who can’t read/understand a dictionary on the other. > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Is there a side for those who don’t read their own cites in full? > > 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god. > \*\*2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. \*\* > > “Disbelief” is not a belief. If I keep my socks in the refrigerator, context does not transform them into my dinner. Also, dictionaries aren’t necessarily the best place to go for word definitions. Here’s the same online dictionary source **godix** used to look up atheism for their definition of _abiogenesis_: a·bi·o·gen·e·sis   –noun Biology . the now discredited theory that living organisms can arise spontaneously from inanimate matter; spontaneous generation. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abiogenesis](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abiogenesis) Much more accurate: > **[Abiogenesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis)** > > Abiogenesis is the natural process by which life arises from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds. The prevailing scientific hypothesis is that the transition from non-living to living entities on Earth was not a single event, but a process of increasing complexity involving the formation of a habitable planet, the prebiotic synthesis of organic molecules, molecular self-replication, self-assembly, autocatalysis, and the emergence of cell membranes. The transition from non-life... If you want a definition of atheism, go to the atheists. > **[Richard Carrier Atheism » Internet Infidels](https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard-carrier-atheism/)** > > What is Atheism Really All About? (1996) Richard Carrier   "He who decides a case without hearing the other side, even if he decides justly, cannot be considered just" — Seneca What is an Atheist? An atheist is a person who does not believe that... [http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm](http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/51 "2010-12-15T23:43:03Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Apropos malleable definitions, I love how this thread has already seen mention of Mao and Stalin, and still that paragraph qualifies as “militant and aggressive” somehow… Go back and read his post. At the very least it is aggressive, dismissive, and full of blanket statements. If you don’t see it, it’s because you identify with it too much to see it objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/52 "2010-12-15T23:48:07Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Also, dictionaries aren’t necessarily the best place to go for word definitions. Here’s the same online dictionary source **godix** used to look up atheism for their definition of _abiogenesis_: Ok, then we have a serious problem in our vernacular and atheists should really go about fixing it in the same way that vegetarians fixed the definition of vegetarian to have various levels of specificity (e.g. lacto-, ovo-, pesca-, vegan, etc). SOMEONE MAKE 4 SEPARATE FUCKING WORDS FOR THESE CONCEPTS: 1. Someone who doesn’t give a shit about God one way or another 2. Someone who is certain that there’s no God 3. Someone who is interested in religion but doesn’t believe or disbelieve in a specific God 4. Someone who is just pissed about perceived theist hegemony in public life ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/53 "2010-12-15T23:49:36Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Right. Now tell us what happened in places like the Soviet Union and China when the majority were atheists and the minority were theists. Again, it’s a function of the people and the climate, not the belief. Actually, the majority were _communists_, not atheists. Atheists didn’t legislate communism- communists legislated atheism. As has been pointed out in \*every \*“Atheists suck” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/54 "2010-12-15T23:51:45Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > SOMEONE MAKE 4 SEPARATE FUCKING WORDS FOR THESE CONCEPTS: Seriously, why do you really care? What would it mean for you if every atheist conceded that their atheism qualified as a “belief”? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/55 "2010-12-15T23:51:57Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Ok, then we have a serious problem in our vernacular and atheists should really go about fixing it in the same way that vegetarians fixed the definition of vegetarian to have various levels of specificity (e.g. lacto-, ovo-, pesca-, vegan, etc). > > SOMEONE MAKE 3 SEPARATE FUCKING WORDS FOR THESE CONCEPTS: > > 1. Someone who doesn’t give a shit about God one way or another > 2. Someone who is certain that there’s no God > 3. Someone who is just pissed about theist hegemony in public life 1. [Apatheism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism) 2. [Strong, Hard, or Positive Atheism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_atheist) 3. [Anti-theism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism), more or less. If you care for these kinds of details, I’m a weak atheist and anti-theist. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/56 "2010-12-15T23:52:28Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Actually, the majority were _communists_, not atheists. Atheists didn’t legislate communism- communists legislated atheism. As has been pointed out in \*every \*“Atheists suck” thread. Well, you won’t be able to avoid the fact that atheists legislated atheism, will you? ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/57 "2010-12-15T23:54:59Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Seriously, why do you really care? What would it mean for you if every atheist conceded that their atheism qualified as a “belief”? I’m just tired of ‘fundamentalist’ atheists proselytizing their ideas on the nature of reality while asserting some kind of intellectual “beyond belief” superiority that underlies their argument, when it’s quite obvious to me that these people believe something, and are trying to convince others of it. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/58 "2010-12-15T23:55:34Z")
Why does everything need to have a specific word attached to it? There’s no word for “people who like hamburgers, but prefers them without pickles” either, but it’s really not much of a problem. Number 3 is atheist. Number 2 is a very specific, and quite uncommon, subset of atheist. Number 1, 2 and 4 comes up so rarely there was never much need to create a unique word for them. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/59 "2010-12-15T23:58:13Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Well, you won’t be able to avoid the fact that atheists legislated atheism, will you? Wow, that must mean that “People who don’t believe in Thor” are the worst group of people in history. After all that includes the aforementioned dastardly Communists, the Phelps clan, _both_ sides of the Crusades, the 9/11 terrorists, Jack the Ripper… I never realized that non-Thorists have so much to answer for. Too bad it makes so much sense to group people this way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/60 "2010-12-15T23:58:59Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Right. Now tell us what happened in places like the Soviet Union and China when the majority were atheists and the minority were theists. Again, it’s a function of the people and the climate, not the belief. It is not clear that the majority were atheists. And the problem was noisy aggressive Communists. A form of religion, in a sense, with a “we are correct” view of the destiny of the world, holy books, and holy icons. Stalin, Mao, or Jesus - same role in people’s homes. And I might remind you that Christianity in Soviet Russia did a lot better than Christianity in fundamentalist Moslem countries. Or Catholics in Elizabethan England, for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=4)