# Why do atheists insist that atheism is a 'non-belief'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/721 "2010-12-27T23:43:16Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > You are being so pedantic as to blind yourself to the question the OP is asking. The OP is implicitly forming a dichotomy between those with “non-belief” and those with “belief plus the implied non-belief”. There is obviously a difference between the two, despite them both superficially sharing non-belief. The question is: \*Why do atheists insist that atheism is a ‘non-belief’ [as opposed to ‘non-belief plus belief’]? \* I think the implication is that atheists with non-belief only don’t actually exist. I was one for quite a few years, because I decided at the time that belief that no gods existed was only logically defensible with a level of knowledge impossible to obtain. I changed my mind about this, but it is not an unreasonable position. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/722 "2010-12-27T23:44:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Because it appears to me that all humans operate this way. Emotion and perhaps conscious vs subconscious affects our belief system. Unless we suffer from brain damage or a brain malfunction that affects the parts of our brain which allow us to feel emotion, pretty much all of our decisions are based upon both reason and emotion. But when that sort damage occurs we are prone to making decisions based only on reason (if we can even decide at all), and those decisions tend to be pretty irrational, sometimes disasterously so. So, yes, of course, emotions and our subconscious likely do affect our belief systems in that what we call our intuition tilts us in one direction or another, such as belief or non-belief in the existence of a god. But that doesn’t change these facts: atheism is non-belief; and non-belief is the absence of belief, not a belief itself. Just as zero apples is the absence of apples, and not a barrel of them. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/723 "2010-12-28T00:29:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think the implication is that atheists with non-belief only don’t actually exist. I was one for quite a few years, because I decided at the time that belief that no gods existed was only logically defensible with a level of knowledge impossible to obtain. I changed my mind about this, but it is not an unreasonable position. Right. I agree that it is not an unreasonable position. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/724 "2010-12-28T01:25:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Lot’s of believers accept science. How is it possible that a believer holds everything in their 2000+ year old book sacred and _not_ accept all science? If one quibbles with repostes of indiscriminate allegories how can they defend their belief structure when it comes to their rock solid tenants? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/725 "2010-12-28T02:58:52Z")
> [@Fatwater\_Fewl](#): > > …But that doesn’t change these facts: atheism is non-belief; and non-belief is the absence of belief, not a belief itself. Just as zero apples is the absence of apples, and not a barrel of them. It’s just not that simple. If I believe that a bowl contains 1 apple and 1 orange, I also MAY have a belief that it does not contain 1 banana. I may not have considered it until someone asked, but once someone asks the question and I quickly review my mental model of the bowl, I am probably going to retain that conclusion as a belief in my set of beliefs. The human brain and its operation appear to be far less black and white than the part of your post that I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/726 "2010-12-28T03:28:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If you were to ask me whether I _believed_ that elephant ghosts exist, I would say I’m _almost_ completely certain they do not exist. I would happily bet my life savings that they don’t exist (provided there was some way for me to actually collect on the bet). > > But I hesitate to have a _positive belief in their non-existence_ because I can indeed imagine a set of events occuring that would convince me of their existence. I don’t consider it impossible in the theoretical sense. More definitional craziness here. You seem to be using the word “positive” as a synonym for “certain.” That’s not the definition I was using; I was using it as the antonym to “negative,” to emphasize that I was talking about a belief, not a non-belief. For what it’s worth, what you describe as your attitude toward elephant ghosts is what I would characterize as a belief. A belief doesn’t need to be 100%. I believe there’s nobody in my house right now except my family, but I’m not 100% certain of that. I believe that the egg nog I drank earlier today had egg yolks in it, but again, not 100% certain. I believe there’s no God, but again, not 100% certain. I believe that there’s an objective universe–wanna take a guess on whether I’m 100% certain? I don’t think it makes sense to require 100% certainty before labeling something a belief; that’s not really how we use the word usually, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/727 "2010-12-28T03:38:52Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > If I believe that a bowl contains 1 apple and 1 orange, I also MAY have a belief that it does not contain 1 banana. Clearly you have no specific belief about bananas because that would imply you have a specific belief about the infinity of entities which could be in that bowl. Nowhere, not consciously or otherwise, has your brain stored a specific disbelief. Nor, as I’ll now describe, does your brain implicitly rule out additional entities within some kind of all-encompassing model. > [@](#): > > I may not have considered it until someone asked, but once someone asks the question and I quickly review my mental model of the bowl, I am probably going to retain that conclusion as a belief in my set of beliefs. Yep – you evaluated a claim, and found it to be implausible. The results of this analysis is added to your data about the world. Consider the difference if I asked you whether there was a sesame seed in the bowl…you’d probably have to answer that you are not sure, but you didn’t see any. You had to evaluate that claim. This contradicts the view that you have a belief of a fixed set of entities, and active disbelief in the existence of any further entities in the bowl. You saw a bowl, containing 1 apple and 1 orange. Any other data is extrapolation. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/728 "2010-12-28T03:43:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think it makes sense to require 100% certainty before labeling something a belief; that’s not really how we use the word usually, I think. I agree – the word “belief” has quite a casual meaning in everyday usage, reflecting the fact that we’re rarely 100% certain about anything. However, in philosophical and theological debates the term has significant connotations. Frankly, a lot of the motive for trying to label atheism a “belief” is to imply that it is simply a _faith_. That people _choose_ to believe it, and then seek to reinforce that view, rather than ever challenge it. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/729 "2010-12-28T05:53:57Z")
**Mijin** : Here’s what I posted. > [@raftpeople](#): > > …If I believe that a bowl contains 1 apple and 1 orange, I also MAY have a belief that it does not contain 1 banana. I may not have considered it until someone asked, but once someone asks the question and I quickly review my mental model of the bowl, I am probably going to retain that conclusion as a belief in my set of beliefs. Here’s what you quoted: > [@](#): > > If I believe that a bowl contains 1 apple and 1 orange, I also MAY have a belief that it does not contain 1 banana. Here’s what you cut out of that quote: > [@](#): > > I may not have considered it until someone asked, but once someone asks the question and I quickly review my mental model of the bowl, I am probably going to retain that conclusion as a belief in my set of beliefs. You will notice that I was careful to state that a person does not necessarily have a belief about a negative unless that thought process has occurred at some point. But for some inexplicable reason, you skipped the point of my post, split apart 2 critically connected ideas and then started responding to a point I didn’t make at all. Why would you do something like this? It hinders as opposed to helps the exchange of ideas and viewpoints. > [@Mijin](#): > > Yep – you evaluated a claim, and found it to be implausible. The results of this analysis is added to your data about the world. Yes, that is exactly what I said in my post. > [@Mijin](#): > > Consider the difference if I asked you whether there was a sesame seed in the bowl…you’d probably have to answer that you are not sure, but you didn’t see any. You had to evaluate that claim. > This contradicts the view that you have a belief of a fixed set of entities,… Not only did I not say I have a belief of a fixed set of entities (and have never said or believed it???), I actually made the point in my post that it would probably require active thought about a specific entity (or could be class of entities) before logging away a negative belief. Did you read my post? > [@Mijin](#): > > …and active disbelief in the existence of any further entities in the bowl. > You saw a bowl, containing 1 apple and 1 orange. Any other data is extrapolation. Did you read my post? ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/730 "2010-12-28T08:05:24Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > It’s just not that simple. Actually, it is that simple. And I believe 😉 **Mijin** did read your post. > [@](#): > > If I believe that a bowl contains 1 apple and 1 orange, I also MAY have a belief that it does not contain 1 banana. I may not have considered it until someone asked, but once someone asks the question and I quickly review my mental model of the bowl, I am probably going to retain that conclusion as a belief in my set of beliefs. You nailed it – atheism and belief are apples and oranges. 😃 But seriously … you’re complicating things unnecessarily here. If there was a banana in the bowl, I believe there is a banana. If there wasn’t, I _don’t_ believe there’s a banana. If didn’t notice one way or another, I’m agnostic about a banana until I turn and check the bowl. > [@](#): > > The human brain and its operation appear to be far less black and white than the part of your post that I quoted. The human brain is complicated as all hell. But belief and non-belief are pretty simple, this thread notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/731 "2010-12-28T13:36:16Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > That doesn’t prevent some of us from trying to do our best to be aware of such biases, and to take pains to disentangle their unwanted influence as to the truth value of a proposition. This is one way of expressing one of the defining characteristics rational thought. Correct. That’s a telling difference in some people. I think a rational person can choose to belong to a religion and still realize the possibility of error. I think we accept things as true because believing works for us on some level and have no real need or desire to question those beliefs until something changes and challenges our belief system. Religious beliefs IMO are similar to beliefs about the rest of the world. We accept certain things on trust as part of a group. We form emotional attachments to beliefs and are reluctant to surrender them, and that affects how we deal with contradictions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/732 "2010-12-28T13:57:37Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > However, in philosophical and theological debates the term has significant connotations. First I think you mean “denotations”; if you don’t, your point escapes me entirely. Second, what significant denotations (or connotations, if that’s what you mean) does the term have? I’d appreciate a link for support. > [@](#): > > Frankly, a lot of the motive for trying to label atheism a “belief” is to imply that it is simply a _faith_. That people _choose_ to believe it, and then seek to reinforce that view, rather than ever challenge it. You keep saying that, but I just don’t think that’s true. You linked to a phrase in the OP that MIGHT support that–but there are plenty of folks who don’t think that way. Arguing against a point because it might be used unethically is a lousy way to argue. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/733 "2010-12-28T14:11:42Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > I came across this today; Useful Notes Atheism: [UsefulNotes / Atheism - TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Atheism) I find this one more useful in describing my [beliefs](http://www.blankwebpage.com/). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/734 "2010-12-28T14:15:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > That may have led you to the idea but what ever made you think it was true? Layman’s observation and reasoning. > [@](#): > > I’ve studied minds in at least three different capacities: I work in AI, I have a postgrad degree in neuroscience and philosophy of the mind has been one of my main hobbies for years. None of this has led me to the idea that human minds need core or foundational beliefs on which everything else rests, and there is plenty of reason to suppose it does not work that way. I don’t have those credentials but it seems obvious to me that we develop a belief system very normally and naturally from the culture and environment we are born into. It seems we don’t know exactly how the uniqueness of the individual affects the development of their belief system or why some people become great scientists, musicians, world leaders or mass murderers, but in general, the society and family you are born into affects your belief system , and your experiences in life. By belief systems, I mean not only what we believe about the physical world, but what we value, and what our priorities are, and how those things are reflected in our interactions with others. > [@](#): > > The only time I hear about “belief systems” is when someone has a position that they can’t logically defend, so they want to at least claim their idea is the equal and opposite flip side of the coin. ftr I am not religious. I am merely trying to view religious belief through the same lens as a view non religious beliefs. What I noticed after Sam Harris suggested we judge religious beliefs in the same way we judge others, was that many non believers still put religious beliefs in a separate category for judgment. I took his suggestion more literally and try to discern what it is within people that makes us believe certain things about the tangible and the intangible. There’s the intellect, the flow of information, our emotions, and our conscious and sub conscious selves. All these play a role in forming the individual belief system , which, if you prefer, you can see as worldview. I include our overall value system and morality with what we believe about our physical world into the individual’s belief system. Everyone has one. For example; There are things we learn in school about geography, history, and our physical world that we accept as true because we trust the source. That is akin to faith IMO. > [@](#): > > The key point however was that disbelief is not necessarily part of any belief system. I won’t argue the point. I just point out that in our culture, because god belief is so pervasive it’s hardly a case of “I never thought about it” Most non believers have considered god belief and rejected it and IMO, that can be part of a belief system. > [@](#): > > Rubbish. Just because I can’t do the experiment doesn’t mean I can’t have a reasoned opinion. > > Would it be bad for humanity if the distance between the Earth and Sun were halved? Yep, I’d say so – we can’t test it though, so I guess it’s an irrational, emotional opinion. :rolleyes: Sorry, but I think this example is rubbish. It’s obviously based on scientific data and reasoning. Your other opinion is based on no data from which to reason. That makes it irrational doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/735 "2010-12-28T14:24:14Z")
The way I see it, non-belief is simply an expression of skepticism that does not commit to any other position. I think, in this case, “non-belief” makes a useful distinction: If I don’t believe a dog is running around in the office, that doesn’t commit me to numerous propositions, i.e. it’s impossible for dogs to be in the office, no personnel will bring a dog to the office, etc. In other words, show me compelling reason or evidence and I’ll believe. I don’t understand why people object to atheists using this distinction. The question shouldn’t be "Why do atheists insist that atheism is a “non-belief”?. It should be “Why do theists insist that “non-belief” shouldn’t be used when it gives us a useful distinction?” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/736 "2010-12-28T14:36:28Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > One can read what religion has driven people to do over millennia. One can witness how secular societies behave compared to religious societies today, compare statistics, see what legislation more religious politicians want to and have passed compared to less religious politicians, etc. To say this “belief is built on nothing but emotion, bias and preference” is bullshit. There’s nothing irrational about drawing conclusions based on evidence even if the evidence is less definite than something like concluding that the Earth is a spheroid. Theists keep wanting to pretend that atheists must believe things that are just as irrational as believing there’s an all powerful sky fairy that knows if we’ve been good or bad and weak arguments like this aren’t very convincing. In fairly recent history there may be some data to compare about societies but nothing conclusive because societies vary and the comparisons would be somewhat subjective. Take something like slavery or civil rights in the US. Different religious folks would be on the positive and te negative side of that. Believing politicians vary to what degree their religious beliefs affect their legislation, and how do we accurately judge the positive and negative affect of that legislation? I maintain that it’s virtually impossible to do such a study but you’re welcome to prove me wrong. More specifically, I was addressing the idea that **Mijin** mentioned that religion has been a drag on our development. I take that to mean we’d be more developed now if not for religion. That is total guess work that has no possible data and therefore, {no disrespect intended} based on emotion and bias, and therefore irrational. I point it out because posters seem fine to find religion to be withing the technical definitions of stupid, delusional, and irrational, which is okay, if we apply the same standard to all beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/737 "2010-12-28T14:40:51Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > You believe we do not have a “belief system”? Isn’t a belief system just a phrase describing the entirety of a persons understanding and model of the world based upon their own particular circumstances (dna, experience, etc.)? > > I assume you don’t think we re-calculate every thought/decision/action every time, so I’m pretty confused by your post. That’s exactly what I was referring to. Call it world view if you will, but IMO everyone has a belief system which combines their understanding of the physical world with their values, preferences, priorities, etc. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/738 "2010-12-28T14:58:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The short answer is that “belief system” has certain connotations which I dispute. The idea of it is that we all view the world through a “lens” of beliefs. And the word “belief” itself implies that everything in this lens is 100% certain. Some people even use the word “axiom” for these fundamental principles, which implies not just certainty but that they are unchallengeable (a system of reasoning could never challenge its own axioms). > > In reality we apply different data to different situations, we can include uncertainty or probability and, most critical to the discussion here, we can use formal systems of reasoning that attempt to eliminate (or at least: minimize hugely) any bias due to past experience or predisposition. These are some of the reasons I disagree with this conception of “belief system”. I disagree. I don’t think anything about the word belief implies 100% certainty or unchallengeable. I think people can vary in their willingness or tendency to evaluate their belief system on the fly as new information comes their way, but new experiences and data can and does affect belief systems. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/739 "2010-12-28T15:03:49Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Are there two kinds of people who don’t believe in leprechauns as well? Or do we start the debate with the position that God is special and reason backwards from there? Is it hard to understand that because god belief is so very pervasive in our culture it’s really not the same as leprechauns and unicorns? Are there lots of folks who were raised to believe in unicorns but later rejected that belief? I understand equating god belief and religious tradition with myth, but as far as it’s place in our society, it’s not the same. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/740 "2010-12-28T15:10:05Z")
> [@Fatwater\_Fewl](#): > > But that doesn’t change these facts: atheism is non-belief; and non-belief is the absence of belief, not a belief itself. Just as zero apples is the absence of apples, and not a barrel of them. and I’m not arguing otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=38)