# Why do atheists insist that atheism is a 'non-belief'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281 "2010-12-15T20:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/141 "2010-12-16T16:50:41Z")
I would actually like an answer: Has anyone ever had an atheist proselyte come to their door and attempt to sway them to un-belief? In addition to home visits, I’ve had one of those dudes in the black pants and white shirt with the nametag sit by me on a subway car in order to try to make me believe. I can’t say I’ve ever seen an atheist do anything similar. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/142 "2010-12-16T16:55:39Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Right. Now tell us what happened in places like the Soviet Union and China when the majority were atheists and the minority were theists. Again, it’s a function of the people and the climate, not the belief. Do you have a cite showing the numbers of people who were _actually_ atheists in those countries at those times, or are you confusing people who were forced to stop openly going to church and worshipping with people who are actually non-believers? ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/143 "2010-12-16T16:59:03Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > If you can say that ‘theists are pushing a theist agenda in the US’, then there is nothing illogical about saying that ‘atheists pushed an atheist agenda in China.’ Well, except for the fact that they’re not. A significant number of Chinese are Buddhists or Taoists. In fact, I know a Buddhist lay priest who lives in China right now. The only time that Communists give religions a hard time is when they break up an organized hierarchy or people go out of their way to antagonize Communism or their leaders. I really don’t understand this meme as much as I don’t understand the meme of atheism being a belief. The only belief required in being an atheist is believing your own senses. I really think that believers simply can’t fathom a lack of belief so they think atheists are somehow lying. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/144 "2010-12-16T17:00:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Setting aside the right-thumb vs. left thumb controversy for now, did you know that both the Nazis _and_ the Communists were against walking around in public with your thumb up your nose in public? Yes, in fact, I did. But they did so for different reasons: The Nazis realised soon enough that all the true believers would soon be darwined away if they continued to let them run around with their right thumb in the nose and shoot up the arm attached to this thumb whenever they saw a picture of Hitler. Or heard his name. Or drove by some statue in a bus (no kidding). And since they had reason to believe that many of their supporters only had a vague idea about the difference between right and left, they consequently outlawed any finger reaching for any nose whatsoever. Göring, of course, was allowed some leeway. I think the Russian communists, otoh, had the growing suspicion that this old habit was subversive in some way. Come to think of it, both parties showed rudimentary realism in this question. **Novelty Bobble** , doesn’t frequent awareness add a sharper identity to unbelief? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/145 "2010-12-16T17:08:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I would actually like an answer: Has anyone ever had an atheist proselyte come to their door and attempt to sway them to un-belief? > > In addition to home visits, I’ve had one of those dudes in the black pants and white shirt with the nametag sit by me on a subway car in order to try to make me believe. I can’t say I’ve ever seen an atheist do anything similar. Dude, you are just missing it. All those people who sit next to you on the subway _and say nothing_ are atheist prosletyzers. What could speak more loudly than that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/146 "2010-12-16T17:11:18Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Dude, you are just missing it. All those people who sit next to you on the subway _and say nothing_ are atheist prosletyzers. What could speak more loudly than that. Are all mimes atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/147 "2010-12-16T17:31:38Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > **Novelty Bobble** , doesn’t frequent awareness add a sharper identity to unbelief? sort of yes, but sort of no. In other words, there is more work involved even if the nature of unbelief is no different. I’m realising this line of enquiry is going to quickly go no-where. Can we pretend I never said anything in the first place? Incidentally, I had an atheist proselytiser not come to door the others day. He didn’t witter on for ages and if he doesn’t turn up again I’m not going to give him the broom handle. that’ll probably not teach him. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/148 "2010-12-16T17:35:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I would actually like an answer: Has anyone ever had an atheist proselyte come to their door and attempt to sway them to un-belief? > > In addition to home visits, I’ve had one of those dudes in the black pants and white shirt with the nametag sit by me on a subway car in order to try to make me believe. I can’t say I’ve ever seen an atheist do anything similar. Well, no. But if we really wanted to spread the word, we’d make a porn movie where a traveling atheist missionary comes to a door and rings the bell. It is answered by a hot and doubting believer in a sheer nightgown. And boom-chicka-wow. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/149 "2010-12-16T17:52:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > sort of yes, but sort of no. In other words, there is more work involved even if the nature of unbelief is no different. I’m realising this line of enquiry is going to quickly go no-where. Can we pretend I never said anything in the first place? > > Incidentally, I had an atheist proselytiser not come to door the others day. He didn’t witter on for ages and if he doesn’t turn up again I’m not going to give him the broom handle. > > that’ll probably not teach him. 1. You know, I didn’t intend to start a walk down sophistry lane but I guess, I might have suggested exactly that. Yeah, lets turn around before we even go there. 2. Ha. I think we should give **RitterSport** et al. some credit for saving this thread from an overdose of sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/150 "2010-12-16T18:00:15Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > 1. You know, I didn’t intend to start a walk down sophistry lane but I guess, I might have suggested exactly that. Yeah, lets turn around before we even go there. Exactly, when faced with a particularly tricky argument didn’t even Spinoza say “let’s get the f\*%k out of Dodge”. I’m pretty sure it was Spinoza. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/151 "2010-12-16T18:07:08Z")
Last night upon the stair I saw an atheist who wasn’t there He wasn’t there again today I wish, I wish he’d go away. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/152 "2010-12-16T18:09:52Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > …2. Ha. I think we should give **RitterSport** et al. some credit for saving this thread from an overdose of sincerity. As the young whippersnappers say, Woot! ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/153 "2010-12-16T18:12:41Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Who are these atheists I keep hearing about who insist it’s a non-belief? I only know the ones who insist it’s not a religion. > > And then religious people insist it is, just like not eating ice cream after dinner is still having dessert, and not collecting stamps is still a hobby, guys not having sex with each other is still homosexuality, etc. Except not eating something or not doing something isn’t in line with an atheist promoting his ‘belief’ about the non-existance of something. If there is no promotion of this thing they call atheism, then I wouldn’t characterize it as a belief. If there is promotion of this ideal, then I’d call it a belief. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/154 "2010-12-16T18:18:40Z")
Okay, but whether or not you promote something doesn’t make it a belief. I’ve never promoted Gain laundry detergent\*, but I believe it’s the best one. \*until now. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/155 "2010-12-16T18:28:01Z")
How does that even work? Is it a belief for the rest of my life if I have ever promoted it, or is it just a belief for the duration and then goes back to being a non-belief afterwards? If someone else promotes it, does that make me a believer? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/156 "2010-12-16T18:40:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, but whether or not you promote something doesn’t make it a belief. I’ve never promoted Gain laundry detergent\*, but I believe it’s the best one. > > \*until now. Wait, does that make you a Gainist or an aTideist? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/157 "2010-12-16T18:48:32Z")
First Evangelical Baptist Church of Gain, Missouri Synod (Reformed). ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/158 "2010-12-16T18:51:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, but whether or not you promote something doesn’t make it a belief. I’ve never promoted Gain laundry detergent\*, but I believe it’s the best one. > > \*until now. The you have the belief that Gain is a good product. > [@Gustav](#): > > How does that even work? Is it a belief for the rest of my life if I have ever promoted it, or is it just a belief for the duration and then goes back to being a non-belief afterwards? If someone else promotes it, does that make me a believer? Yes. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Wait, does that make you a Gainist or an aTideist? Clearly that makes him a Gainist. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > First Evangelical Baptist Church of Gain, Missouri Synod (Reformed). ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/159 "2010-12-16T19:05:17Z")
Hmm. What about the converse? Say I truly believe there _is_ a god, but choose never to utter a word in promotion of said belief. Does that make me a non-believer? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281/160 "2010-12-16T19:50:02Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Hmm. What about the converse? Say I truly believe there _is_ a god, but choose never to utter a word in promotion of said belief. Does that make me a non-believer? Don’t you try your dirty atheist mind tricks on me! Getting all logicy and stuff.. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-atheists-insist-that-atheism-is-a-non-belief/564281.md?page=9)