# Why do athiest's opinions matter more than religious people's opinions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870 "2005-01-09T08:31:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/161 "2005-01-11T21:12:39Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Keep your god crap out of my ears if you want my business. **Spectrum** , aren’t you a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/162 "2005-01-11T21:18:46Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Sure. Keep pointing fingers and spreading the blame, and that’ll make the problem go away and solve everything. When we can say that fundamentalist Christians are responsible for all – no, wait, “primarily” all – the intolerance and injustice in our society, then we can just get rid of Christianity and everything’s cool. > > I mean, it worked for the Romans, right? Are people just forgetting the fact that the rise of Christianity was rooted in martyrdom and an oppressed minority? And it went from that to becoming the dominant religion in the west, often using the mentality of “We’re right and you’re wrong, and our actions are justified because we’re being repressed,” to turn the tables on the oppressors. > > So what’s your grand plan, **Wasteful**? To keep pushing back and forth every couple thousand years or so? Or to come up with something where everybody can be happy without calling each other idiots and whiners or heathens and sinners? Excellent point. And, by the way, **GL** , you want an example of “one of those Christians who’s trying to oppress gay people and push his faith on everybody else by law”? I’m quoting him. You want another? Me. You want a bunch of others? Leaf back through this thread, the eight-page one in the Pit about whether belief/disbelief in God is fact or opinion, and see how many people are stating their Christianity and their desire to dissociate themselves from Neopharisaic Falwellianity. And we’re fighting **as hard as we can** – it’s **our** beliefs that are being perverted to abuse and malign by the hatemongers. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/163 "2005-01-11T21:51:46Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Excellent point. > > And, by the way, **GL** , you want an example of “one of those Christians who’s trying to oppress gay people and push his faith on everybody else by law”? > > I’m quoting him. > > You want another? > > Me. [Count me in on that group too.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5669202&postcount=208*) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/164 "2005-01-11T22:19:24Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > [Count me in on that group too.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5669202&postcount=208*) I missed that, **prisoner**. Go you! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/165 "2005-01-12T00:08:53Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > If it’s the song that says, > > I really don’t like that song. First, I don’t think it’s good to live for today. Nobody would save their money. And second, is he saying that religion is contrary to peace? I like peace too, but I think that if people took their religions as personal choices instead of ways to judge others, differing religions wouldn’t be a problem. **Religion** isn’t the problem. The people that use it to oppress and kill others are. > > **Religion doesn’t kill, people do.** Lennon said in his interview with _Playboy_ magazine, right before he was killed, that he didn’t mean, literally, no religion, just none of the whole “my god can beat up your god”, or “if you don’t believe the way I do you are EVIL!” stuff. His point was-what IF this is all there is? Couldn’t we still be peaceful, and nice, not because we’re afraid of going to Hell, or because we want to go to Heaven, but just because we SHOULD? The reason why I haven’t asked about the Christian music is that I really don’t KNOW any Christian rock-all the Christian music I know of is traditional or classical. So it wouldn’t mean anything. Besides, you said people complained because it was Christian rock, and they weren’t Christian. **Siege** > [@](#): > > However, if I recall, the lawsuit was filed by a Catholic and an Episcopalian. The people who complained were Catholics, Mormons and Jews. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/166 "2005-01-12T00:32:54Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Sure. Keep pointing fingers and spreading the blame, and that’ll make the problem go away and solve everything. When we can say that fundamentalist Christians are responsible for all – no, wait, “primarily” all – the intolerance and injustice in our society, then we can just get rid of Christianity and everything’s cool. Where in hell did **that** come from? Take a look around, Sporto. The US is predominantly Christian. It’s not going away. But if you really wanna get into a pissing contest over whether Christians are more persecuted than virtually any other group in the US, I’m game. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > So what’s your grand plan, **Wasteful**? To keep pushing back and forth every couple thousand years or so? Or to come up with something where everybody can be happy without calling each other idiots and whiners or heathens and sinners? Perhaps Christians should learn to be just a skosh more tolerant, just like I said. Until that happens, I won’t be surprised at all. Why, what’s yours? And **Poly** : I know that it’s your belief that’s being perverted. But until a group of Christians comes along who can overcome “Neopharisaic Falwellianity” (great term by the by) then you shall be known by those who claim your beliefs. Damned shame and all, but that’s the way it is. And **prisoner6655321** : If you really feel as you claim in your link, that casting judgment on others is prideful, then I imagine that you’re capable of realizing that this thread serves no purpose. Because you’ve judged the manager in your poorly worded and worse defended example based on your interpretation of his actions. I dunno, seems similar to me. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/167 "2005-01-12T00:52:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The reason why I haven’t asked about the Christian music is that I really don’t KNOW any Christian rock. Consider yourself fortunate. I’m sure many will accuse me of holding this oppinion because of the content, but that’s not it. There are literally hundreds of spiritually-oriented compositions that I think are wonderful in the sphere of Christianity alone. Just think: _Creed_ is the most widely-regarded example of the genre, if they’re music could be thought of as Xian Rock. From there it goes from insufferably bad to gouge-your-eardrums-out-with-red-hot-augers bad. It’s really just the most gawdawfle collection of music under the heading of “rock” I’ve enver encountered. I had a friend at an old job who was pretty much fundie-light, and she brought this stuff into work one day, on the recommendation of a friend from her church. I said go crazy, and she popped the disks one-by-one into the changer and hit “shuffle”. I suppressed my urge to jump out the window, as I had (sadly) given the go-ahead, and she remained silent for some time. Finally, after what seemed like an eternity in purgatory (but was probaly like 16 minutes) she said, “My God, this stuff _SUCKS_!” And threw in a Prince CD. I’m guessing most of the Xian Rock audience doesn’t really want to be there, but can’t abide more mainstream rock acts because they figure it’s be like paying money to watch the whore of Babylon striptease. So they’re stuck with this Xian Rock, which most certainly doesn’t, and they have to make the best of it while they are neigher edified nor entertained for an hour or two. In short, it’s like customer repellent. Maybe some don’t mind crap music in a shop, but I only put up with it if I have to. If I’m just browsing, and the PA is oozing spew, I move on. ---
**Author:** ![rippingtons\_fan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rippingtons_fan/32/11767_2.png) [@rippingtons\_fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rippingtons_fan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/168 "2005-01-12T01:02:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sorry; I’m trying to treat this seriously and having trouble doing it. > I suppose this goes hand in hand with the painful, awful burden of being a majority. I’m not sure how atheists even get involved in this. There are Christians who don’t like Christian rock, and religious people who don’t like religious music. And of course, there are people who aren’t Christian. In other words, I imagine the boss figured that secular music had the potential to bother fewer people. In general people seem to try and avoid religious controversy. > You’ve made the (in my opinion silly) judgment call that the boss’s thinking, whatever it was, mirrors societies or somehow stands for anybody else’s. I don’t know why. If you’re wondering why this one guy did something, ask him. If you’re trying to make a large point about society, I don’t think you’ve done a good job of it at all, because you haven’t proven that atheists’ opinions matter more to anybody. If you’re trying to relate this to court cases, I hope it’s not a surprise that courts often get involved in trying to protect minority rights. > What are you going to do, argue that the separation of church and state hurts your feelings? This is absurd. * * * I hear that there’s a movement in the U.S.A. to ban display of ALL religious symbols (like those on church property) because they could be seen from public areas, and, as public areas are for the most part considered to be part of “the state”, then displaying such symbols for all to see violates the separation of church and state. Similarly, all religious broadcasts or telecasts would be illegal as well, as they use the frequencies which are regulated by the government, and using these government granted and government regulated airwaves for religious purposes would also violate the separation of church and state. I’ve heard of something called the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and I wonder if this was part of their political agenda, and if so, would these people soon get their way and have this written into law? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/169 "2005-01-12T02:04:01Z")
[QUOTE=rippingtons\_fan I hear that there’s a movement in the U.S.A. to ban display of ALL religious symbols (like those on church property) because they could be seen from public areas, and, as public areas are for the most part considered to be part of “the state”, then displaying such symbols for all to see violates the separation of church and state.[/QUOTE] Unless you can provide a link to any sort of organization that advocates banning religious displays even from private church owned property, I’m taking your claims with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/170 "2005-01-12T02:11:28Z")
> [@rippingtons\_fan](#): > > I hear that there’s a movement in the U.S.A. to ban display of ALL religious symbols (like those on church property) because they could be seen from public areas, and, as public areas are for the most part considered to be part of “the state”, then displaying such symbols for all to see violates the separation of church and state. \ Anybody can advocate anything, but I’ve never heard of this. If you’re saying or have heard this has any kind of serious following, I’m sure you’ve been misinformed. No court would buy that reasoning because it would be a clear violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees the free exercise of religion. I only gave it a quick look, but [the Freedom from Religion Foundation](http://www.ffrf.org/purposes/) does not appear to advocate what you’re saying it does. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/171 "2005-01-12T02:16:34Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Where in hell did **that** come from? Take a look around, Sporto. The US is predominantly Christian. It’s not going away. But if you really wanna get into a pissing contest over whether Christians are more persecuted than virtually any other group in the US, I’m game. Great, sounds like a fun game. I’ll let you start by showing me where I said anything of the sort. Your move. > [@GLWasteful](#): > > Perhaps Christians should learn to be just a skosh more tolerant, just like I said. Until that happens, I won’t be surprised at all. Why, what’s yours? Well, “Sporto,” I’d guess that my plan is exactly what I said in the part that you quoted. To make a world where everybody can coexist peacefully and still be happy, without having to one-up each other and blame each other and be total hypocrites and justify it by saying that _they_ have more of a problem than _we_ do. And not freaking out and seeing every single display of religious faith as an attack, but being practical about it and actually putting some sense into it, saying _this_ is witnessing, while _this_ is something that I don’t agree with but I respect that it is important to you. You know, this “tolerance” thing that you keep saying everybody _else_ needs to do, but apparently y’all are exempt. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/172 "2005-01-12T07:57:53Z")
> [@rippingtons\_fan](#): > > I hear that there’s a movement in the U.S.A. to ban display of ALL religious symbols (like those on church property) because they could be seen from public areas, and, as public areas are for the most part considered to be part of “the state”, then displaying such symbols for all to see violates the separation of church and state. > > Similarly, all religious broadcasts or telecasts would be illegal as well, as they use the frequencies which are regulated by the government, and using these government granted and government regulated airwaves for religious purposes would also violate the separation of church and state. > > I’ve heard of something called the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and I wonder if this was part of their political agenda, and if so, would these people soon get their way and have this written into law? I think you need a little more tinfoil in your hat. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/173 "2005-01-12T13:35:52Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Great, sounds like a fun game. I’ll let you start by showing me where I said anything of the sort. Your move. Fair enough. You didn’t claim that. I was ascribing the motives of the OP to you. I apologize. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > Well, “Sporto,” I’d guess that my plan is exactly what I said in the part that you quoted. To make a world where everybody can coexist peacefully and still be happy, without having to one-up each other and blame each other and be total hypocrites and justify it by saying that _they_ have more of a problem than _we_ do. Y’see, Slick, I don’t have a problem with peaceful coexistence. 'Samatter of fact, I’m all for it. I’m just getting damned sick and tired of waiting for it. > [@](#): > > And not freaking out and seeing every single display of religious faith as an attack, but being practical about it and actually putting some sense into it, saying _this_ is witnessing, while _this_ is something that I don’t agree with but I respect that it is important to you. Sounds fine. And for the record, I don’t make a point of freaking out at every religious display. It’s primarily those on the courthouse lawn that get my dander up. > [@](#): > > You know, this “tolerance” thing that you keep saying everybody _else_ needs to do, but apparently y’all are exempt. I’m sorry? Exempt? You wouldn’t be putting words in my mouth that don’t exist or anything, wouldja? I’d hate to see that happen. ---
**Author:** ![rippingtons\_fan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rippingtons_fan/32/11767_2.png) [@rippingtons\_fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rippingtons_fan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/174 "2005-01-12T17:45:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Anybody can advocate anything, but I’ve never heard of this. If you’re saying or have heard this has any kind of serious following, I’m sure you’ve been misinformed. No court would buy that reasoning because it would be a clear violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees the free exercise of religion. > > I only gave it a quick look, but [the Freedom from Religion Foundation](http://www.ffrf.org/purposes/) does not appear to advocate what you’re saying it does. I’m glad that there were some sane answers here at the Straight Dope to these claims, because maybe now I can try to track this down to the source (if there is one.) Could someone further down the line have just made this all up for the shock value? Is it even possible to track down something like this to its original source? I apologise for repeating all this stuff I heard, but I HAD to find out if other people had heard of this before. I originally heard this from a person at work, so I asked him where he heard it, and he said from a person in his neighborhood, and in asking him further he said he thought that the person he got it from was in the John Birch Society! Could they be branching out from paranoid anti-communism into paranoid claims of religious persecution? Maybe now, since these claims were aired on the Straight Dope we can nip this in the bud before it spreads any further. ---
**Author:** ![Lambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lambo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/175 "2005-01-12T19:53:51Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Since I listen to a lot of rock and roll, I was going to ask which song it was which advocated premarital sex specifically, but it appears doing so will be a waste of pixels now. Well, there’s always ‘Only the Good Die Young’ by Billy Joel. Apparently, the one and only song my mother forbade my sisters from playing in the house (she had mellowed a good bit by the time I hit the same age). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/176 "2005-01-13T04:43:49Z")
If you’re going to object to any rock and roll song that advocates premarital sex, in any fashion (however indirect), then certainly one should also object to the poem “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell, since that promotes premarital sex in a more obvious way. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870/177 "2005-01-13T11:04:56Z")
> [@Lambo](#): > > Well, there’s always ‘Only the Good Die Young’ by Billy Joel. Apparently, the one and only song my mother forbade my sisters from playing in the house (she had mellowed a good bit by the time I hit the same age). Apparently you didn’t notice my sig! 😃 **prisoner** , you do realize that what you’ve been doing this thread – making very brief replies which only address the most tangential points – is the kind of behaviour which is likely to get you Pitted again, don’t you? People have raised rather good arguments in this thread but once again you’ve failed to address them. Care to give it a shot? CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-athiests-opinions-matter-more-than-religious-peoples-opinions/283870.md?page=8)