# Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948 "2009-01-25T20:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/321 "2015-01-13T16:11:44Z")
The only accurate way to test this is to totally divorce people from parental/societal influence and broader culture. Like raised by androids from fetuses on a terraformed world divorced. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/322 "2015-01-13T17:12:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is the claim [Black students with one parent who holds a graduate degree tend to be outperformed by white students whose parents have a high school degree or less.] That’s not the claim I was responding to. This is the claim I was responding to: > [@Shodan](#): > > One of the things that correlates with “giftedness” is parental education levels, but that doesn’t seem to work for blacks. Do you see the difference between these two claims? The first one appears to be true. The second one doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/323 "2015-01-13T17:16:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “Giftedness” as measured by scholastic achievement correlates much more strongly with having a highly educated parent for whites and Asians that it does for blacks. Incidentally, if intelligence (measured by achievement) is primarily an inherited trait, this would be a surprising result: you’d expect the biological children of high-achieving black people to test better than the biological children of low-achieving white people. But if this sort of intelligence is primarily influenced by a plethora of social factors, of which family environment is only one, and if structural racism has a powerful influence, this is exactly the result you’d expect: the influence of racism is so strong that it overcomes any salutary influence of “smart” genes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/324 "2015-01-13T18:17:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Incidentally, if intelligence (measured by achievement) is primarily an inherited trait, this would be a surprising result: you’d expect the biological children of high-achieving black people to test better than the biological children of low-achieving white people. Good thing I haven’t claimed it was primary, then. > [@](#): > > But if this sort of intelligence is primarily influenced by a plethora of social factors, of which family environment is only one, and if structural racism has a powerful influence, this is exactly the result you’d expect: the influence of racism is so strong that it overcomes any salutary influence of “smart” genes. Or perhaps it is regression to the mean. Or even that “structural racism” is a Finagle Factor to explain increased factors like parental education or high SES, that correlate with increased achievement in whites and Asians, don’t so correlate with blacks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/325 "2015-01-13T18:17:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Incidentally, if intelligence (measured by achievement) is primarily an inherited trait, this would be a surprising result: you’d expect the biological children of high-achieving black people to test better than the biological children of low-achieving white people. > > But if this sort of intelligence is primarily influenced by a plethora of social factors, of which family environment is only one, and if structural racism has a powerful influence, this is exactly the result you’d expect: the influence of racism is so strong that it overcomes any salutary influence of “smart” genes. Um, what? No, it’s exactly what you would expect if intelligence is mostly heritable _and there is a genetically influenced difference between the Black and White means_. That would imply that two Black parents with a 125 IQ are substantially further away from their population mean than two White parents with a 125 IQ, so you would expect the Black child to underperform their parent much more than the white child. One of my friend who’s argued in favour of the race/iq thesis says that this was exactly the bit of evidence he found _most_ convincing in favour of genetically based racial differences. For what it’s worth, it’s not really in dispute that IQ is heavily heritable, the dispute is whether the racial differences are also genetic in nature. Intelligence is about 50% heritable and 20% due to prenatal environment (some estimates are higher, but this one seems convincing to me). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/326 "2015-01-13T18:23:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, what? No, it’s exactly what you would expect if intelligence is mostly heritable _and there is a genetically influenced difference between the Black and White means_. It’s also perfectly consistent with the assertion that various societal factors are responsible for the test-score gap. > [@](#): > > One of my friend who’s argued in favour of the race/iq thesis says that this was exactly the bit of evidence he found _most_ convincing in favour of genetically based racial differences. This doesn’t speak well of your friend’s intelligence genes. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/327 "2015-01-13T18:29:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s also perfectly consistent with the assertion that various societal factors are responsible for the test-score gap. Yes, if you’re insistent on doing so, you can always make up some magical ‘societal factors’ to explain away inconvenient evidence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/328 "2015-01-13T18:55:13Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Yes, if you’re insistent on doing so, you can always make up some magical ‘societal factors’ to explain away inconvenient evidence. One could say the same thing about ‘magical genetic factors’. Especially considering that there is specific experimental data that _directly refutes the genetic explanation_, and there is no such specific experimental data that directly refutes in any way the involvement of societal factors. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/329 "2015-01-13T19:14:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One could say the same thing about ‘magical genetic factors’. Especially considering that there is specific experimental data that _directly refutes the genetic explanation_, and there is no such specific experimental data that directly refutes in any way the involvement of societal factors. Can you send me the link for that paper again? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/330 "2015-01-13T20:21:31Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Can you send me the link for that paper again? [Here](http://www.scribd.com/doc/3616665/Sandra-Scarr-Andrew-J-Pakstis-Solomon-H-Katz-and-William-B-Barker-Absence-of-a-relationship-between-degree-of-white-ancestry-and-intellectual-s). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/331 "2015-01-13T21:59:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, what? No, it’s exactly what you would expect if intelligence is mostly heritable _and there is a genetically influenced difference between the Black and White means_. That would imply that two Black parents with a 125 IQ are substantially further away from their population mean than two White parents with a 125 IQ, so you would expect the Black child to underperform their parent much more than the white child. I’m totally confused. Do you inherit from your parents, or from your population mean? It’s been awhile since I studied genetics, so maybe there’s a mechanism by which you’re inheriting from your racial group instead of your parents that I’ve just forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/332 "2015-01-14T01:38:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Good thing I haven’t claimed it was primary, then. Woah–let’s be clear on something here. Have you conceded that your earlier claim–“One of the things that correlates with “giftedness” is parental education levels, but that doesn’t seem to work for blacks”–is unsupported? Because this is, I think, the third time in this thread you’ve made a claim, and I’ve put some effort and back and forth into showing why it’s wrong, and then you’ve either backed away or stopped responding. It’d be nice to have some clarity if you’re conceding the point. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps it is regression to the mean. Or even that “structural racism” is a Finagle Factor to explain increased factors like parental education or high SES, that correlate with increased achievement in whites and Asians, don’t so correlate with blacks. “Finagle Factor” is a cute term. But if you’d like to know what structural racism is, you could read the article I linked to earlier in response to your earlier request for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/333 "2015-01-14T03:10:43Z")
So, on the open hand we have the possibility that the races are absolutely identical from an intelligence standpoint. And any evidence (indirect as it may be) that suggests otherwise is, of course, wrong and must be able to be explained away by some social factor that hasn’t been controlled for yet. On the other hand we have the possibility that intelligence may vary from race to race the same way that height, skin color, eye shape can. It’s not surprising that so many here on the SDMB view the latter possibility to be the more “No—it just can’t be!” position. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/334 "2015-01-14T03:49:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, on the open hand we have the possibility that the races are absolutely identical from an intelligence standpoint. And any evidence (indirect as it may be) that suggests otherwise is, of course, wrong and must be able to be explained away by some social factor that hasn’t been controlled for yet. When I hear a scream and a gunshot and come into a room to find a man standing over a bloody corpse and holding a smoking gun in his hand, I may not ask for an autopsy to see if the deceased had an inoperable brain tumor. The thing is, the evidence for the social conditions is exhaustive (although I suspect you, Shodan, and Chief Pedant haven’t spent much time reading that evidence). Despite Pedant’s handwaving away of social conditions, he hasn’t said anything that actually counters any of this evidence. There’s no reason whatsoever to multiply entities. There’s no reason to suggest that some genetic factor is at fault. Sure, it’s possible that “races” have some variance in one or more intelligence genes. But social conditions are so overwhelmingly influential that it’s impossible to predict what form those variations might take. Will we discover that spatial intelligence is linked to brown hair? Is verbal intelligence negatively associated with genes for height? Are nostril width and pattern-finding linked? Do people with blue eyes generally have more trouble interpreting body language than people with brown eyes? Or will it just be CONVEEEEENIENTLY coincidental that racist scientific theories of the twenty-first century, unlike those of all preceding centuries, just happen to be the racist theories that finally identify with accuracy why white people are so much better than brown people? Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/335 "2015-01-14T05:03:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > . . . Or will it just be CONVEEEEENIENTLY coincidental that racist scientific theories of the twenty-first century, unlike those of all preceding centuries, just happen to be the racist theories that finally identify with accuracy why white people are so much better than brown people? . . . Don’t most of these guys claim, though, that people of Asian descent do even better than Caucasians? I don’t think the idea has any validity; I’m wholly on the side of cultural influences here. But is this modern 21st century racism wholly self-serving? If the white guy says, “Whites are smarter than blacks…but not as smart as Chinese and Indians,” he is clearly not arguing solely from his own best interest. (The horrible part is that the argument is so incredibly hurtful to so many Americans, and clearly comes up short in the evidence department. “When one factors out poverty” is the magic phrase here: no one has shown that to be possible. If my family are millionaires now – but were extremely poor 20 years ago – and your family are upper-middle-class now – and have been for 200 years – poverty is certainly not “factored out” of your upbringing and of mine!) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/336 "2015-01-14T11:42:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Don’t most of these guys claim, though, that people of Asian descent do even better than Caucasians? > > I don’t think the idea has any validity; I’m wholly on the side of cultural influences here. > > But is this modern 21st century racism wholly self-serving? If the white guy says, “Whites are smarter than blacks…but not as smart as Chinese and Indians,” he is clearly not arguing solely from his own best interest. Given how often this aspect of their argument is mentioned to defend themselves from charges of racism, I’m wholly unconvinced that it serves any purpose other than inoculating themselves from honest self-reflection. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/337 "2015-01-14T11:51:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given how often this aspect of their argument is mentioned to defend themselves from charges of racism, I’m wholly unconvinced that it serves any purpose other than inoculating themselves from honest self-reflection. I think that historically, the idea was and is that Africans have too much penis, not enough brains, Asians have not enough penis, too much brains, and Europeans were some perfect, Goldilocks compromise. So black people need to be controlled because their out-of-control masculinity makes them dangerous, and Asians need to be led because their effete natures lack focus and drive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/338 "2015-01-14T12:23:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, on the open hand we have the possibility that the races are absolutely identical from an intelligence standpoint. And any evidence (indirect as it may be) that suggests otherwise is, of course, wrong and must be able to be explained away by some social factor that hasn’t been controlled for yet. Any indirect evidence that suggests genetics may be involved (and there’s no evidence at all that points solely towards the genetic explanation) is more than refuted by the _direct_ evidence that says genetics is absolutely not involved. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/339 "2015-01-14T14:52:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, on the open hand we have the possibility that the races are absolutely identical from an intelligence standpoint. And any evidence (indirect as it may be) that suggests otherwise is, of course, wrong and must be able to be explained away by some social factor that hasn’t been controlled for yet. > > On the other hand we have the possibility that intelligence may vary from race to race the same way that height, skin color, eye shape can. You are, of course, ignoring the true reason - that race is a bullshit way to group people with no scientific validity whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/340 "2015-01-14T19:44:54Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think that historically, the idea was and is that Africans have too much penis, not enough brains, Asians have not enough penis, too much brains, and Europeans were some perfect, Goldilocks compromise. So black people need to be controlled because their out-of-control masculinity makes them dangerous, and Asians need to be led because their effete natures lack focus and drive. But who could lead them? Who, I ask, will take up this burden? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=18)