# Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948 "2009-01-25T20:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/742 "2015-03-07T15:09:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is astounding is your man-hanging-from-the-edge-of-a-cliff insistence that he means something he doesn’t mean. Given your apparent refusal to answer the simple A-B question I posed, it seems that you’d rather contort his actual position (never mind trying to actually understand it) into an imaginary one that you can use to point and say, “Look how ridiculous!” I directly answered it. According to the _words he uses_, his position is “no black person can learn”. I can only judge his position by what he writes. > [@](#): > > If you really think that CP’s position is A, you really, really need to distance yourself from discussions like this. It’s not fair to the other individuals and unhealthy for you. I’m enjoying myself very much, but thank you for your concern. It’s entirely fair to respond to the words people use when they post. Are you saying I should just assume he doesn’t mean what he writes? I’ve tried to correct him many, many times, but he continues to use the same words and phrases. > [@](#): > > I’ve seen this before when someone is (understandable) emotionally invested in a discussion. There can be a tendency to take someone’s position and contort it into "the worsest, most ridiculous, most offensive position in the history of mankind. > > You need to take a step back. Really. As long as you continue to insist that his position is is the ridiculous one you have in your mind, discussion will be worse than useless. I’m fine with the way things are going. I’m having a great time – I only post in subjects that I find fun to discuss. That’s why I post – when I think it’s fun to explore something. Pointing out stupid statements can be fun. Taking apart bad arguments can be fun. Even pointing out the straw-man arguments that he falsely attributes to me is fun. Reasoned and calm discussion can be fun. Really. It’s entirely reasonable to go by what someone posts, even when it seems ridiculous, and especially when it’s been pointed out multiple times but he _still insists on using the same language_. The quotes you asked for were provided to you. You said, specifically, “But if you can provide a cite substantiating your claim of what he did say, that’s another story. Can you?” These cites were provided. You said it would be another story, but now you’re complaining. Why did you ask for these quotes, and why did you say “that’s another story”, if your mind was already made up? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/743 "2015-03-07T15:20:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I directly answered it. According to the _words he uses_, his position is “no black person can learn”. I can only judge his position by what he writes. But you’re not. You’re trying to play some game of gotcha. First you contort his position to something completely dumb-fuck, then you search for snippets that support your mischaracterization. How is it that I, reading those same words, don’t think he is saying what you insist he is? Though, we both agree that the position is asinine, at best. You’re wrong here. It’s absurd. If he comes back and says that you’re characterization is right—hell, if it’s even closer to what he believes than what I’ve come away with, I will apologize to you and join you in ridiculing that stupid, stupid, unsupportable, need-to-see-a psychiatrist position. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/744 "2015-03-07T15:40:39Z")
Good grief. This is as bad as the time I yelled to the ex “wait, that’s the wrong switch” and she swore I said “whats wrong with you fat bitch”. Lets take this extreme even further. “blacks can’t learn” The MOST literal interpretation of those words means that. A black newborn is as smart as when he enteres first grade. A black person in the 8th grade is as smart when they are a graduating senior. A college freshman is as smart as when they have earned their bachelors. The beginning graduate student is as when he finishes his PHD. CP doesn’t believe that. And you guys know it. His whole argument is based on averages, distributions, and comparisions between groups. And you guys know that too. This as bad or worse than when Judge Judy flies of the handle and “has it all figured out” when somebody misspeaks in some tiny manor. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/745 "2015-03-07T15:56:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > They are not synonyms, no. Not even close. > [@](#): > > But in context, my point stands Context doesn’t change the meaning in the slightest. Talk about your wordsmithing… > [@](#): > > , as much as you’d like to ignore it. How the fuck have I _ignored_ it by pointing out that it doesn’t mean what you think it means? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/746 "2015-03-07T15:58:52Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > CP doesn’t believe that. And you guys know it. \*\*CP \*\*genuinely believes the entire population of the continent of Africa is, “on average”, functionally retarded. So I don’t know what the fuck other weird shit he believes, to be frank. I can just go by what he actually types. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/747 "2015-03-07T16:15:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But you’re not. You’re trying to play some game of gotcha. First you contort his position to something completely dumb-fuck, then you search for snippets that support your mischaracterization. How is it that I, reading those same words, don’t think he is saying what you insist he is? Though, we both agree that the position is asinine, at best. You’re wrong here. It’s absurd. If he comes back and says that you’re characterization is right—hell, if it’s even closer to what he believes than what I’ve come away with, I will apologize to you and join you in ridiculing that stupid, stupid, unsupportable, need-to-see-a psychiatrist position. Then I take it you were entirely disingenuous when you asked for cites, and said “that’s another story” if those cites were provided. I don’t know what he believes, except for what he writes. That’s the only way I can judge what he might think – I’m only responding to what he writes. Why do you think he’s falsely attributed this “can’t learn” crap to me over and over again when I’ve repeatedly disabused him of the notion? Why do you think he keeps using that language when I point out how ridiculous it is, and how easy it is to refute? Maybe he means something else… but whatever he means, what he’s saying is “black students are unable to learn”. It’s not like this is the first time he’s done it, or the first time I’ve called him on it. It’s happened over and over, and he won’t or can’t change the words he uses. So I’m going to point out what those words mean, and point out how silly that is, for as long as he uses those words. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/748 "2015-03-07T16:16:10Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Good grief. > > This is as bad as the time I yelled to the ex “wait, that’s the wrong switch” and she swore I said “whats wrong with you fat bitch”. > > Lets take this extreme even further. > > “blacks can’t learn” > > The MOST literal interpretation of those words means that. > > A black newborn is as smart as when he enteres first grade. A black person in the 8th grade is as smart when they are a graduating senior. A college freshman is as smart as when they have earned their bachelors. The beginning graduate student is as when he finishes his PHD. > > CP doesn’t believe that. And you guys know it. > > His whole argument is based on averages, distributions, and comparisions between groups. And you guys know that too. > > This as bad or worse than when Judge Judy flies of the handle and “has it all figured out” when somebody misspeaks in some tiny manor. I don’t know what **CP** believes except for by what he writes – and what he writes, over and over again, despite me calling him out and pointing out how ridiculous it is, is “black students are unable to learn”, and variations. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/749 "2015-03-07T17:52:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then I take it you were entirely disingenuous when you asked for cites, and said “that’s another story” if those cites were provided. > > I don’t know what he believes, except for what he writes. That’s the only way I can judge what he might think – I’m only responding to what he writes. > > Why do you think he’s falsely attributed this “can’t learn” crap to me over and over again when I’ve repeatedly disabused him of the notion? Why do you think he keeps using that language when I point out how ridiculous it is, and how easy it is to refute? Maybe he means something else… but whatever he means, what he’s saying is “black students are unable to learn”. > > It’s not like this is the first time he’s done it, or the first time I’ve called him on it. It’s happened over and over, and he won’t or can’t change the words he uses. So I’m going to point out what those words mean, and point out how silly that is, for as long as he uses those words. Complete fucking bullshit! You’re trying to play a game of gotcha, just as I said. And if you would have digested my request for sites in its entirety, rather than jumping on one phrase like a heroin addict jumping on fresh needle with something it, you would realize that your cites do not do what you imagine they do. You claim, “I’m only responding to what he writes”, is reeks of desperation. Tell me, what did you say when you called him? “What,” you say, “I didn’t call him!” Well you must be mistaken, because I can quote you verbatim stating that you did. Here it is: [QUOTE=iiandyiiii] I’ve called him on [/QUOTE] Don’t believe me just scroll up within this post and read where I quoted you. THERE! Settled. After all, I can only go be the words you write. Dumb, right? Well you’re doing pretty much the same thing. that’s why I asked you the A-B question. And for you to insist that given all that he’s posted, that CP believes what you want to believe he believes is, to give you every benefit of the doubt, disingenuous. Tell me, how do you account for the fact that I didn’t come away with your contorted understanding? How do you explain billfish678 coming in and telling you you’re off your rocker? Is it a conspiracy. Maybe he and I are what and your black and we’ve conspired—one more time—to keep a black man down. Look, while we’ve disagreed on much, we’ve had some good exchanges. But this position, and your insistence upon keeping it, is looney tunes. You know, I have enough respect for you to think that you know this is a bullshit accusation from you. But you’ve started down that road and just don’t want to back down. I know you would have loved it if you hadn’t been called out on it. That way, the guy you disagree with is not just wrong about what you’ve been arguing about, he’s CRAZY, so everything he says should be discounted. This is not a new tactic. But one which I am surprised to see you employ. I’ll leave you to your insisting that someone holds a position that he does not hold, when his actual position can easily be discerned by any fair reading of his posts. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/750 "2015-03-07T18:14:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Complete fucking bullshit! You’re trying to play a game of gotcha, just as I said. And if you would have digested my request for sites in its entirety, rather than jumping on one phrase like a heroin addict jumping on fresh needle with something it, you would realize that your cites do not do what you imagine they do. My cites show, over and over again, that **CP** has both falsely attributed to me and asserted on his own the idea that “black students are unable to learn”. You asked for cites of such statements without qualifiers like “on par” – and such cites (exactly what you asked for) were provided. > [@](#): > > You claim, “I’m only responding to what he writes”, is reeks of desperation. Tell me, what did you say when you called him? > > “What,” you say, “I didn’t call him!” Well you must be mistaken, because I can quote you verbatim stating that you did. Here it is: > > Don’t believe me just scroll up within this post and read where I quoted you. > > THERE! Settled. After all, I can only go be the words you write. I quoted entire sentences and paragraphs. Some had qualifiers like “on par”, and some didn’t (not that it matters – “unable to learn on par” is still ridiculous, since plenty of black students learn “on par” with the highest performers). I think there’s a great chance **CP** doesn’t actually believe that every black student is unable to learn, or unable to compete, or unable to succeed. But he keeps saying it – and I keep trying to correct him. Why does he keep saying it? Maybe he doesn’t realize it, and doesn’t even read my posts in which I call him on it (since he routinely ignores my questions about it). As long as he keeps repeating this nonsense, I’m going to call him on it. Maybe some point he’ll actually respond and explain why he uses such language. > [@](#): > > Dumb, right? Well you’re doing pretty much the same thing. that’s why I asked you the A-B question. And for you to insist that given all that he’s posted, that CP believes what you want to believe he believes is, to give you every benefit of the doubt, disingenuous. I don’t know what he believes. I only know what he says. And what’s he’s saying is “blacks are unable to learn”. I want him to stop saying it – it’s very stupid, whether he falsely attributes it to me, or says it himself. It’s ridiculous, and I want him to stop, and I’m going to continue to call him on it. > [@](#): > > Tell me, how do you account for the fact that I didn’t come away with your contorted understanding? How do you explain billfish678 coming in and telling you you’re off your rocker? Is it a conspiracy. Maybe he and I are what and your black and we’ve conspired—one more time—to keep a black man down. Or maybe **Trinopus** , **Mr Dibble** , and my interpretations are the correct one. You can feel free to disagree. Since we can’t know what’s in anyone’s head, I think it’s appropriate to go by what people type. What **CP** is typing, over and over again, is “blacks are unable to learn”. He’s falsely attributing the idea to me, and saying it himself. > [@](#): > > Look, while we’ve disagreed on much, we’ve had some good exchanges. But this position, and your insistence upon keeping it, is looney tunes. You know, I have enough respect for you to think that you know this is a bullshit accusation from you. But you’ve started down that road and just don’t want to back down. I know you would have loved it if you hadn’t been called out on it. That way, the guy you disagree with is not just wrong about what you’ve been arguing about, he’s CRAZY, so everything he says should be discounted. This is not a new tactic. But one which I am surprised to see you employ. > > I’ll leave you to your insisting that someone holds a position that he does not hold, when his actual position can easily be discerned by any fair reading of his posts. Have fun. I love that you called me on it. Always call me on things – such discussions are great fun (and feel free to stop assuming, ever, what I “would have loved”). No worries here on that. Let’s put aside what **CP** may or may not believe, or may or may not be saying, about black people – let’s just look at what he’s said about **ME**. He’s absolutely said, over and over again, that _I believe that black people can’t learn_. He’s asserted that I want to make some sort of excuse to why “black students are unable to perform”. Why does he keep saying this about me? I call him on it every time, and he doesn’t stop. Why? What’s going on with him that he keeps saying, over and over again, that I believe that black people can’t learn, can’t succeed, and can’t perform? Is it unreasonable for me to react strongly and criticize these false attributions about me? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/751 "2015-03-07T18:19:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think there’s a great chance **CP** doesn’t actually believe that every black student is unable to learn, or unable to compete, or unable to succeed. But he keeps saying it – and I keep trying to correct him. Why does he keep saying it? Two possibilities: 1. He is using shorthand or not fully expressing each thought each and every time or doesn’t mean EXACTLY what he’s typed at that particular moment. 2. Well, I’ll let you figure that one out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/752 "2015-03-07T18:21:22Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Two possibilities: > > 1. He is using shorthand or not fully expressing each thought each and every time or doesn’t mean EXACTLY what he’s typed at that particular moment. > > 2. Well, I’ll let you figure that one out. If it’s the first, then it’s damn confusing, and I’ll keep criticizing him for it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/753 "2015-03-07T21:51:15Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Two possibilities: > > 1. He is using shorthand or not fully expressing each thought each and every time or doesn’t mean EXACTLY what he’s typed at that particular moment. > > 2. Well, I’ll let you figure that one out. Possibility 1 is more likely…but it’s bad writing. It’s bad debate technique. After several people have complained of it, it’s doubly bad when he continues to engage in it. It goes beyond mere sloppiness, and edges into “Democrat Party” territory, i.e., it appears he’s doing it deliberately to be offensive. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it’s the first, then it’s damn confusing, and I’ll keep criticizing him for it. And correctly so. It reminds me of people new to debate who use “per say” instead of “per se.” Easy enough mistake to make. (For my part, I thought “on par” did mean “on average,” so I’m glad I didn’t address that bit directly!) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/754 "2015-03-07T22:00:19Z")
How can anyone discount culture in this debate? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/755 "2015-03-08T01:32:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How can anyone discount culture in this debate? I’ve questioned “when one factors out poverty” from the beginning. How do you do that? Okay, maybe I’m a really rich black guy…but my grandfather was poor. The cultural accommodation to poverty is likely part of my family’s heritage. **Chief Pedant** sneered at me for pointing this out, but lots of very poor families still have lots of books in the house, and this helps balance out their poverty, giving the kids a head-start in education. A family tradition of literacy is of immense value, even in the poorest family (and the lack of that tradition is a handicap, even in the richest.) ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/756 "2015-03-08T04:04:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ve questioned “when one factors out poverty” from the beginning. How do you do that? Okay, maybe I’m a really rich black guy…but my grandfather was poor. The cultural accommodation to poverty is likely part of my family’s heritage. > > **Chief Pedant** sneered at me for pointing this out, but lots of very poor families still have lots of books in the house, and this helps balance out their poverty, giving the kids a head-start in education. A family tradition of literacy is of immense value, even in the poorest family (and the lack of that tradition is a handicap, even in the richest.) This is a crucial point. When you assume people with the same incomes have the same culture, you end up comparing black bus drivers and oil field workers, who can make six figure incomes in good years, to white librarians and liberal arts professors. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/757 "2015-03-08T08:09:02Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How can anyone discount culture in this debate? Can’t say outside the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/758 "2015-03-08T12:09:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then stop saying things like “black students are unable to learn on par with their peer group”!!! Black students are absolutely able to learn on par with their peer group, and many do. If, on average, they don’t score as highly, that doesn’t mean all of them are “unable” to. So stop saying it. Not “if.” And not “all.” **As an average,** black students are unable to perform on par with their peers. You are fussing over silliness in your desperation to find holes in a genetically-based argument. Is your complaint this time that I didn’t say “as an average” as if that were not the discussion at hand and I am so stupid as to think no black student anywhere outperforms a white peer or asian peer academically? Surely you can do better than that in the interest of furthering real debate. We have both had these conversations long enough for you to know exactly what my position is, and the conversational nature of exchange reasonably eliminates the need to redefine the terms we are using every time. Your pretense that you are holding me to some sort of high standard for expression which would turn every post into a restatement of everything said before is not helpful to a discussion. If you want to explain why nature is not likely to have diverged gene pools separated by 65 to 350 thousand years, fine. If you want to explain why black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty so that economics and opportunity are eliminated, fine. I am not interested in chasing wordsmithing rabbits that detract from the topic. The average performance outcomes are very clear. If you have data that suggests otherwise, please post it. As an average, black students are unable to perform on par with their peers. This is true at every SES tier. In high SES/opportunity tiers, blacks underperform white and asian peers. In low SES/opportunity tiers, and every tier in between, they are unable to perform on par with those peers. This is true across every educational institution in the US, and they are desperate to retain race-alone affirmative action programs in order to make accommodations for the fact that, as an average group, blacks are unable to perform on par with their peers. This is why Fisher v U Texas is headed back to the Supreme Court. U Texas wants to protect its ability to get good black students because the 10% rule limits them to weak ones, and the best black students from outside the black majority high schools still are unable to perform on par with their peers. As a consequence, opportunity-based AA will not work as a tool to get the best black students admission. Your explanation for this inability is some type of nurturing variable that you are confident explains this inability to perform on par when economics and parental education are factored out. Your expectation is that blacks would be able to perform on par if \_\_\_\_\_\_ (fill in your own blank here, but in the past I have seen you attribute the inability to perform–on average 🙂 ; always on average --to poor parenting, persistent “institutional discrimination,” peer pressure to underperform in school, low teacher expectations, stereotype threats, and probably some others which I have either forgotten or which are so vague I am not sure what they meant). ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/759 "2015-03-08T12:19:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Add me to the list of people who are troubled by the equation of “performance gap” and “unable to learn.” The two conditions are very, very far apart. I am using “unable to learn on par” as an observation of the current situation in the same sense that I would say, “whites and asians are unable to compete on par with blacks” for basketball. Explanations advanced for this average group inability to compete on par with peers may be nurture or nature. Perhaps all the good white/asian BB potential got distracted by careers which seemed to them much more rewarding than excelling at basketball. Perhaps they were peer-pressured into not practicing hard enough. Perhaps there is a genetic reason. 😉 But, as an accurate observation, on average whites and asians are unable to perform on par with their black peers wrt basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/760 "2015-03-08T12:25:27Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How can anyone discount culture in this debate? Which particular aspect of black culture do you find persuasive as an explanation that black children from very high income families, and with highly educated parents, score so poorly against their SES peers, and barely on par with poverty stricken whites whose parents have high school educations or less? Do these highly educated (graduate degree) and economically privileged black parents create a home culture that renders these students unable to learn, or is it the external culture at school that prevents these students from learning on par with their peers? Thoughts around any specifics for those putative “culture” explanations so we don’t discount them? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/761 "2015-03-08T12:35:27Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ve questioned “when one factors out poverty” from the beginning. How do you do that? Okay, maybe I’m a really rich black guy…but my grandfather was poor. The cultural accommodation to poverty is likely part of my family’s heritage. > > **Chief Pedant** sneered at me for pointing this out, but lots of very poor families still have lots of books in the house, and this helps balance out their poverty, giving the kids a head-start in education. A family tradition of literacy is of immense value, even in the poorest family (and the lack of that tradition is a handicap, even in the richest.) “Sneering”? A little sensitive, are we? In my experience as a medical educator, countless students with horrible ancestral histories do well. I’m unclear why, if gramps was a slave, or in a concentration camp, or killed during the Tet offensive, or drowned sneaking the kids in from Cuba, or tortured during the Nanking massacre, or marginalized by Islamic nationalists when he got trapped on the wrong side of the border during India’s partition… …that a “cultural accommodation” created as a “poverty heritage” skips a generation or two and renders the grandchildren unable to learn on par with their peers when their own parents are economically, socially, and educationally highly successful. I note that this “cultural accommodation” is need ONLY for blacks, as an average group, and I keep trying to find out what is involved in this “cultural accommodation” that is so peculiar to this one group–and why it skips a generation… Is it the case that black grandchildren find out about how horrible gramps had it and just stop trying in school so they can honor his suffering? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=39)