# Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948 "2009-01-25T20:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/862 "2015-03-22T16:22:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have a position. I don’t know the answer to the question. I’m not ready to accept that group genetics are involved. You’ve stated before that you’d agree that genetics amy be responsible. That’s my position. Nothing more. Yet you will argue to the cows come home that “It just can’t be!” and “How dare you hold such a position.” Yes, I paraphrase. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Black athletes” in the US does not mean “African ancestry”. Most have European ancestry as well, and many have native American ancestry. But they still have the African ancestry, as well. Again, what percent of the 100 fastest humans are not black or “mixed-black”? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So we disagree (and, of course, “black”, “mixed”, and “white” are cultural labels, not genetic ones – most black people in the US are genetically “mixed” in terms of continental ancestry). I don’t know the best explanation, but considering the incredible past disparities in athletics, with tiny groups dominating big sports due to obviously cultural reasons, I see no reason to believe that such things might still not be the case today. Not definitely, but possibly. You need to provide an explanation. Back when the Jews dominated basketball, if one were to ask why the Jews, culture wold be a good answer. If one were tom ask, why are there no blacks in basketball? Well, culture had more than a little to do with that. Now we have all groups free to participate. I am positive that culture and society account for some of the disparity in basketball (inner city, available courts, low cost, etc.) but that does not account for the disparity. And when you look at the speed positions in football, the explanation is even more eating. Move on to sprinting and you really need to just abandon the notion that the disparity can be accounted for by society and culture. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/863 "2015-03-22T16:22:58Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is obviously the chinese contribution tot he Jamacians… > > I am always amused by the americans who post pictures of their basketball and their football and yell look at all the blacks! as an obvious sign of the genetics… But I see faces that in the west africa will be labelled Toubab - white people - they have so much of the european ancenstry in them, and look completely different from the peoples of the west african countries, except maybe the sahel people who have mixed with the berbers from the north. > > but american one drop rules, they see all undifferentiated black. > > and this is an argument in their minds for genetics… it is a funny cultural myopia. Myopia is the word for it. It’s hilarious and bizarre at the same time. This isn’t really a debate about genetics. That’s pretty much been settled - the strong genetic hypothesis for the test score gap is dead. It’s a search for rational support for irrational hostility against black Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/864 "2015-03-22T16:24:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’ve stated before that you’d agree that genetics amy be responsible. That’s my position. Nothing more. Yet you will argue to the cows come home that “It just can’t be!” and “How dare you hold such a position.” Yes, I paraphrase. I never asserted anything like “it just can’t be” or “how dare you…”. I’ve said nothing like that (not even close) regarding race and athletics. > [@](#): > > But they still have the African ancestry, as well. Again, what percent of the 100 fastest humans are not black or “mixed-black”? I don’t know. What percent have no European (or Native American) ancestry? Probably very few, if any. > [@](#): > > You need to provide an explanation. Back when the Jews dominated basketball, if one were to ask why the Jews, culture wold be a good answer. If one were tom ask, why are there no blacks in basketball? Well, culture had more than a little to do with that. Now we have all groups free to participate. I am positive that culture and society account for some of the disparity in basketball (inner city, available courts, low cost, etc.) but that does not account for the disparity. And when you look at the speed positions in football, the explanation is even more eating. Move on to sprinting and you really need to just abandon the notion that the disparity can be accounted for by society and culture. Whites dominated sprinting in the past. I don’t see “NOW” as special, so the same forces that operated in the past might just be operating in different ways and varying degrees today. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/865 "2015-03-22T16:24:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The same sorts of things that caused the “incredible size” of the disparity with Jews and basketball (or many other disparities) in the past. > > Since those definitely existed, I think it’s possible that something similar exists now. I don’t see “now” as special and unique. The same forces that operated in the past probably operate, to varying degrees, today. I don’t know if this is the definite cause, but it might be. I would love to here your theory of the forces in play that result in a small group (~16%) achieving 90%-plus of the slots in the NBA, in the NFL’s speed positions, and on the list of the 100 fastest sprinters. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/866 "2015-03-22T16:27:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But they still have the African ancestry, as well. Again, what percent of the 100 fastest humans are not black or “mixed-black”? It is very funny, the pretension the american one drop rule about black is pretended to have a genetic meaning… I think it is in the american phrases “he has the black cooties”? In fact the unifiying factor of this, it is the perception of origin and not the genetics, which seems to give an answer. of course I have witness the alignment of a certian kind of american opinion about their black population and their insistence on a one drop content of genetic analysis. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/867 "2015-03-22T16:28:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I would love to here your theory of the forces in play that result in a small group (~16%) achieving 90%-plus of the slots in the NBA, in the NFL’s speed positions, and on the list of the 100 fastest sprinters. I don’t have a “theory”. I’m just not ready to accept a theory (hypothesis, really) with no specific supporting evidence. Even if its genetics – what genetics? Maybe the combination of African and European genetics cause the greatest sprinting abilities, or basketball abilities, or football… maybe that’s why African Americans dominate (statistically) many of these sports, since African Americans have lots of both ancestries. Or maybe it’s something entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/868 "2015-03-22T16:29:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whites dominated sprinting in the past. I don’t see “NOW” as special, so the same forces that operated in the past might just be operating in different ways and varying degrees today. Are you friggin kidding me? They dominated because blacks weren’t competing. The disparity is astronomical. Extraordinary! It falls to you to at least offer an alternate theory, with with some meat on it. This “culture and society” is a bullshit answer and you know it. What specific mechanisms cop you think are in play? What is it about _culture_? What is it about _society_? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/869 "2015-03-22T16:31:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Are you friggin kidding me? They dominated because blacks weren’t competing. The disparity is astronomical. Extraordinary! It falls to you to at least offer an alternate theory, with with some meat on it. This “culture and society” is a bullshit answer and you know it. What specific mechanisms cop you think are in play? What is it about _culture_? What is it about _society_? What is it about _genetics_? The same questions apply to any theory. You are marking “black” as “African ancestry”, even though most black people in America have mixed ancestry. We might as well say “~99% of basketball players have European ancestry”… and we’d probably be correct! Most black people, most sprinters, and most basketball players in America have European ancestry. But because we _culturally_ identify them as black, they seem “different” than the majority, and it seems to some like we have to explain it as something intrinsic to their supposed difference. But they’re not really that different, even genetically – most African Americans have some European ancestry, and many white Americans have some African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/870 "2015-03-22T16:32:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have a “theory”. I’m just not ready to accept a theory (hypothesis, really) with no specific supporting evidence. Even if its genetics – what genetics? Maybe the combination of African and European genetics cause the greatest sprinting abilities, or basketball abilities, or football… maybe that’s why African Americans dominate (statistically) many of these sports, since African Americans have lots of both ancestries. Or maybe it’s something entirely different. Translation, “I have no idea what the explanation might be, I just know that it can’t be (must not be!) genetics. Because…well, just because. Oh, and I don’t want it to be true because my Kumbaya wish is that everyone is the same other than a few more drops of melanin. Can’t we all just get along?” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/871 "2015-03-22T16:34:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is it about _genetics_? The same questions apply to any theory. You are marking “black” as “African ancestry”, even though most black people in America have mixed ancestry. We might as well say “~99% of basketball players have European ancestry”… and we’d probably be correct! Most black people, most sprinters, and most basketball players in America have European ancestry. > > But because we _culturally_ identify them as black, they seem “different” than the majority, and it seems to some like we have to explain it as something intrinsic to their supposed difference. But they’re not really that different, even genetically – most African Americans have some European ancestry, and many white Americans have some African ancestry. Ah, a page from the Dribble. There’s no such things as race. :rolleyes: Reread the thread. Gotta run. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/872 "2015-03-22T16:34:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Translation, “I have no idea what the explanation might be, I just know that it can’t be (must not be!) genetics. Because…well, just because. Oh, and I don’t want it to be true because my Kumbaya wish is that everyone is the same other than a few more drops of melanin. Can’t we all just get along?” Except that I’ve never said “it can’t” or “it must not be” genetics with regards to athletics. Never. I’ll kindly ask you to stop saying false things about my assertions, or cite them if you think they’re not false. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/873 "2015-03-22T16:35:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, a page from the Dribble. There’s no such things as race. :rolleyes: > > Reread the thread. Gotta run. Nope. Reread my post. Do you disagree that most basketball players probably have European ancestry? Or most American sprinters? They probably do, you know. Why does their African ancestry “count” but not their other ancestry? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/874 "2015-03-22T16:37:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But because we _culturally_ identify them as black, they seem “different” than the majority, and it seems to some like we have to explain it as something intrinsic to their supposed difference. But they’re not really that different, even genetically – most African Americans have some European ancestry, and many white Americans have some African ancestry. The one drop rule is pretty stupid when used for either good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/875 "2015-03-22T16:37:50Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The one drop rule is pretty stupid when used for either good or bad. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/876 "2015-03-22T16:41:01Z")
It’s funny that **magellan01** says that I’m insisting that it can’t be genetics in response to a post _in which I specifically offer a possible genetic explanation_. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/877 "2015-03-22T16:45:36Z")
It is the african cooties theory of americans - it is odd how it only accidentally resembles at all the blacks are inferior theory of your Jim crow era, only accidentally because it is only the ‘data’ that lead to this conclusion and not anything social at all. he misses your proposal of the unique mixing of the euro and the african and the indian as it is not consistent with the african cooties rule. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/878 "2015-03-22T17:34:46Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > You are confused as to the argument. No, you’re confused as to what statement I was objecting to. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/879 "2015-03-22T17:37:11Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [snip]I hope this example helps you work through this concept. Nothing in that word salad would make sense of the term “average separation” the way you used it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/880 "2015-03-22T17:48:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s funny that **magellan01** says that I’m insisting that it can’t be genetics in response to a post _in which I specifically offer a possible genetic explanation_. Yeah, but it’s an explanation where _miscegenation_ is the key to _superiority_. You can see why the race realists aren’t going to buy into _that_! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/881 "2015-03-22T17:56:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You keep trying to pull this bullshit. Stop it. No one—NO ONE—has expressed the opinion that society and culture do not play a role. NO ONE! Can you please try to let that sink in. Sheeze. On the contrary, that is a central thesis of Chief Pedant’s argument. Despite numerous exchanges in which the various differences of culture are pointed out, he continues to harp on the refrain > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Highly educated black parents are likely to value high educational achievement for their children. They are likely to have a conceptual grasp of how to navigate the educational system and what factors are involved in how to learn. They are likely to engender those values for their children. Yet their children, on average, score barely on par with whites and asians from families with very poorly educated parents. > > Wealthy black parents are likely to value educational achievement for their children even if they themselves happen to be wealthy for non-educational reasons (business; entertainment; sports; whatever). I do not find persuasive an idea that a wealthy black parent just wants the kids to coast off the family dole, or has some sort of anti-educational bias, or cultural crippling that prevents them from thinking Jimmy should keep his ass in school and learn. Those wealthy parents have the resources to effect whatever opportunity needs to be effected…better schools; tutors; whatever. Yet their children score barely on par with whites and asians with very limited economic opportunity. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And I think that the average outcomes which show that a wealthy and privileged black cohort performs barely on par with a poor and underprivileged white or asian cohort is strong evidence that there is an average innate difference in ability for that skillset. This is nothing more than an appeal to his personal (unsupported) belief in order to find a way to pretend that cultural differences simply play no serious part in the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=45)