# Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948 "2009-01-25T20:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/81 "2009-01-26T03:27:53Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Race is a broad cohort with little (but not no) genetic underpinnings. I understand you don’t want to get dragged into anything, but I was just wondering if you could provide some information on why you said “little (but not no)” here? It’s my understanding that it really isn’t a clue to anything at all, beyond obviously your melanin content. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/82 "2009-01-26T03:34:57Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > _groans_ > > One “race” cannot be more intelligent or, uh, anything, because the term is a fraud. It’s meaningless. “Blackness” or “Asianness” or whatever, is not a clue to your genetic makeup. So you would agree it’s probably a waste of time to take race into account when looking for blood or organ donors, right? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/83 "2009-01-26T04:12:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So you would agree it’s probably a waste of time to take race into account when looking for blood or organ donors, right? It would depend how you used the word “race.” If you used race to indicate a specific known population in a specific location, there is a good chance that they will be sufficiently closely related that they will provide better matches than people with different backgrounds. In the U.S., for example, the label of “black race” is given to the descendants of people from a specific region of Africa. It is not improbable that one would find a number of blood groupings that are more similar among that “race.” If one then generalized that specific American experience to the world it might be a waste of time, indeed. A Yoruban from Ghana might match more easily with a “white” Lebanese than with a “black” San of South Africa. Using the sloppy category “race” with no context is liable to harm as easily as help. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/84 "2009-01-26T04:13:28Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So you would agree it’s probably a waste of time to take race into account when looking for blood or organ donors, right? No. In a given area, race and population will mean very similar things. Given that pragmatism must rule in such things, it can be helpful. On the other hand, if one were doing a global search for blood/organs for some reason, race would be worthless. ETA: _whaps tomndebb_ ETA2: I should also add that there are probably countries with a large mix of similar “race” people that are in fact not closely related. In such a case using race would also be useless. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/85 "2009-01-26T04:16:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So you would agree it’s probably a waste of time to take race into account when looking for blood or organ donors, right? Blood typing can be and should be done before you start a blood transfusion anyway. It can be done in less than 30 seconds with the proper equipment (and thats doing the test manually). Organ donation you have a better argument for but its very important to understand that HLA antigen differences in human populations are out-of-step with the Linnean classification of “races”. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/86 "2009-01-26T04:21:05Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > No. In a given area, race and population will mean very similar things. Given that pragmatism must rule in such things, it can be helpful. :shrug: So much for the claim that “the term is a fraud. It’s meaningless.” ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/87 "2009-01-26T04:25:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > :shrug: So much for the claim that “the term is a fraud. It’s meaningless.” Fine, I’ll qualify it. In most cases, the word is useless at best, and often very damaging. In a few cases, it happens to coincide with a more useful term, and can be useful. Even in such cases, it is still only accurate in a general sense (usually requiring qualifiers), and there will be many exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/88 "2009-01-26T04:26:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > :shrug: So much for the claim that “the term is a fraud. It’s meaningless.” Well, it takes on meaning when it is used in specific cultural contexts. In the larger, generic expression it is actually worse than meaningless; it is misleading–hence the note that it is fraudulent when used to describe only three to five groups of people in the world. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/89 "2009-01-26T04:33:09Z")
I’m still wondering if a relationship can be established between comparable race’s athletic predisposition and it’s intelligence/academic one. If in fact brain growth can be measured against athletic development in sheer terms of the physical, is there a difference? Can there be stats that say “black people are gentically predisposed to athleticism, but whites are more predisposed to intellect”? Is that even measurable? I wonder. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/90 "2009-01-26T04:41:19Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > In a few cases, it happens to coincide with a more useful term, and can be useful. i.e. when goodies are being handed out, such as donor organs, it’s useful. On the other hand, when evidence emerges that undermines the Egalitarian Hypothesis, then it’s useless. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/91 "2009-01-26T04:41:30Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’m still wondering if a relationship can be established between comparable race’s athletic predisposition and it’s intelligence/academic one. > > If in fact brain growth can be measured against athletic development in sheer terms of the physical, is there a difference? Can there be stats that say “black people are gentically predisposed to athleticism, but whites are more predisposed to intellect”? Is that even measurable? > > I wonder. “Black” people are not predisposed to _anything_, other than having dark skin. It is possible certain populations may have differences. The population of African Americans, for example, may have some genetic advantage in running or something. This does not mean that a black person from, say, Zimbabwe, will have that same advantage, despite both being “black”. Or a person from Indonesia might have a genetic advantage in intelligence that a person from Japan doesn’t, despite both being “asian”. Note that I completely made these examples up, as far as I know there’s no evidence for any of them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/92 "2009-01-26T04:43:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > . . A few posts back, I politely asked you for two examples of this: > [@](#): > > We continually see people shrug off every historical event and cultural factor for the purpose of hanging on to a hypothesis that some ill-defined group is just born that way. Perhaps you missed my request? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/93 "2009-01-26T04:46:17Z")
Malcolm Gladwell’s most recent book “Outliers” talks about this to an extent. The root cause is poverty, not race. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/94 "2009-01-26T04:54:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. when goodies are being handed out, such as donor organs, it’s useful. On the other hand, when evidence emerges that undermines the Egalitarian Hypothesis, then it’s useless. This is not what was posted. You will also refrain from falsely claiming (or implying) that any poster has advanced the Egalitarian Hypothesis until such time as some poster actually does so. [/Modding] = = = > [@brazil84](#): > > Perhaps you missed my request? I ignored your “request” that was intended only to provide more opportunity for thread hijacking. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/95 "2009-01-26T05:23:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. when goodies are being handed out, such as donor organs, it’s useful. On the other hand, when evidence emerges that undermines the Egalitarian Hypothesis, then it’s useless. It’s useful only in the sense that it’s a difficult situation, where you use what tools you have, even if those tools are poor and inaccurate. This reminds me of a semi-recent hullabaloo here in South Africa where gay people were not allowed to donate blood, due to the massive levels of AIDS in that group. Since they have to test the blood anyway, and they have limited resources, they simply wanted to cut out a group with such a high incidence. Ideally, you’d have the resources to test everyone, and such unfairness could be discarded. It certainly is not socially healthy to implement such policies, but there’s a severe lack of blood, so you do what you have to. Using the term race is much the same. It’s inaccurate, causes all sorts of social problems, and there are better methods, that for several reasons are not used. If you want to make that out as “the term race is useful” then so be it. I certainly would not call it that. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/96 "2009-01-26T05:33:38Z")
So then are the differences cited in the OP geographic in origin? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/97 "2009-01-26T05:36:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You will also refrain from falsely claiming (or implying) that any poster has advanced the Egalitarian Hypothesis until such time as some poster actually does so. If I misunderstood one or more of the other posters in this thread, then of course I apologize to them. > [@](#): > > I ignored your “request” that was intended only to provide more opportunity for thread hijacking. Such was not my intent. I was simply asking for specific examples of a general statement or observation you chose to make. Since you are unwilling to provide such examples, our discussion is concluded. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/98 "2009-01-26T07:53:00Z")
Doesn’t everyone have black pupils? It’s the irises that vary in color. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/99 "2009-01-26T07:59:40Z")
One problem with thinking that the gap in, say, average I.Q. scores between different races is due to genetics is that the gap has shrunk substantially over the past few generations, even though there of course can’t be substantial genetic change in that short a time frame. It’s clearly a societal thing. It’s worth noting that groups that are stereotypically expected to perform poorly on particular tests do significantly worse when reminded that they belong to that group before taking the test. Simply having someone bubble in what race they are can have a substantial effect. Differences between races also vary a good bit from one country to another, again suggesting it’s a societal thing. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/100 "2009-01-26T10:33:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > An insufficient proof of exactly what? **Chief Pedant** provided those statistics to argue against income gaps as explaining the black/white academic disparaties. He seems to have hit his target. Hence this thread trying to seek alternative explanations. You and Chief Pedant seem to think that alternative explanations rooted in societal/cultural causes don’t amount to much - if I’ve misinterpreted I apologise. More in about eight hours’ time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=6)