# Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948 "2009-01-25T20:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/982 "2015-03-27T12:07:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Is this the broken link you’ve been asked to fix? If so, missed it, but [here is the Eric Wang paper](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1317879/) I was referencing. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/983 "2015-03-27T12:12:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But this hasn’t been established – it’s been established that most of the top sprinters are _black_, but it has not been established how much West African or European (or other) ancestry they have. But if the european genes were doing the contributing, we would not see blacks overtake whites in this arena. It’s the west african gene content that drives the self-identification. If it were european genes driving success, the proportion of successful sprinters would remain at least proportionate to the wannabe pool, which is overwhelmingly white. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/984 "2015-03-27T12:19:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do blacks with more African ancestry perform better than blacks with more European ancestry. Certainly, on average, because self-described blacks perform better than self-described whites, and we know that average ancestry proportion, at least for the US cohorts. And we also know it is not european genes driving success because the highest performance outcome is not white; it’s black. You could create some other cohort by measuring actual admixtures, but there’s no need to. You already know which source pool has the best genes for sprinting. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/985 "2015-03-27T12:24:27Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > What you are saying here is not wrong. However, it misses the point I was trying to clarify, in the post you replied to: > > **Average** gene frequencies of such genes in a population are irrelevant to the performance of top athletes. They are all drawn from a pool of total outliers, and in no way representative of the average. > > Or to rephrase: The very top athletes are selected on the basis which includes having high-performance genetics for a sport. > > Unless a countrys frequency of a such a gene variant is low to the point of nullity, or their ability to identify and nurture talents in a sport is very poor indeed, the people with the best performance will rise to the top. A process that will select for advantageous gene variants. > > Also, there are 3 million people in Jamaica, 91 % with West African heritage. There are 223 million people in the US who identifies as “White”. With 3 % of the genes of this group being of West African origin, there should be more than twice as many of these genes in the US white group as there are in Jamaica. While it’s true top athletes are outliers, it’s not true the observed pattern occurs only in those outliers. If we were to take sprinting, basketball or football, we’d see generally the same pattern at every level of progression from grade school on. WRT Jamaica, I do not discount that they root out every candidate more rigorously than does the US. What you won’t find is a proportionate number of white Jamaicans becoming elite sprinters there, nor a proportionate number of white US kids become elite sprinters in the US. Genes; and it’s just not that hard to account for nurturing among cohorts for sports that return very high rewards. To argue for nurturing, you have to postulate that whites aren’t interested, don’t get rewarded for success, don’t care about stardom, and so on. And that is more than a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/986 "2015-03-27T12:37:49Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If so, missed it, but [here is the Eric Wang paper](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1317879/) I was referencing. TY. Not sure if it’s the same. You linked to this earlier but I can’t get anything to load: htttp://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.169.5750 Ohhh I see. Extra t in the link. I’ll flag it for a mod. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/987 "2015-03-27T14:16:33Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > While it’s true top athletes are outliers, it’s not true the observed pattern occurs only in those outliers. > > If we were to take sprinting, basketball or football, we’d see generally the same pattern at every level of progression from grade school on. That means broad sports results from grade school on, an athletic equivalent to SATs could be used to indicate a different range of average genes suited to these sports. While the results of top athletes, hand-picked for characteristics that include genes very different from the average, cannot. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > WRT Jamaica, I do not discount that they root out every candidate more rigorously than does the US. What you won’t find is a proportionate number of white Jamaicans becoming elite sprinters there, nor a proportionate number of white US kids become elite sprinters in the US. That is actually an argument against a genetic root for the differences. With a 3 % admixture of west African genes into the US white gene pool, the pool is so large that there is going to be a group of outliers which have the west African “sports” genes. Assuming this group is going to be subject to the same processes in school and life, it should produce up elite runners with the same genetic advantages as African Americans. The only reason why the white US population would not produce elite runners whose African gene percentage includes just those genes is culture. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > To argue for nurturing, you have to postulate that whites aren’t interested, don’t get rewarded for success, don’t care about stardom, and so on. And that is more than a stretch. You could also argue that whites have had more paths to success open to them. Most cheetah hunts end in failure because the cheetah is running for his dinner, and the antelope is running for his life. Motivation matters. The man who has only one path out of poverty will go more heavily into it than the one who has backups. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/988 "2015-03-27T14:45:01Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > But if the european genes were doing the contributing, we would not see blacks overtake whites in this arena. It’s the west african gene content that drives the self-identification. > > If it were european genes driving success, the proportion of successful sprinters would remain at least proportionate to the wannabe pool, which is overwhelmingly white. If it were some factor resulting from a combination of ancestries, then that could cause the current disparities. So could various cultural and environmental factors. It still might be genetics, but we don’t know that for sure – much less that it’s something specific about West African genetics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/989 "2015-03-27T14:50:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Certainly, on average, because self-described blacks perform better than self-described whites, and we know that average ancestry proportion, at least for the US cohorts. In the US, most self-described blacks have a variety of ancestries. So it may not be West African genetics that are the cause. > [@](#): > > And we also know it is not european genes driving success because the highest performance outcome is not white; it’s black. The highest outcome could be some ancestry mix (that appears “black”) and we wouldn’t know it. > [@](#): > > You could create some other cohort by measuring actual admixtures, but there’s no need to. You already know which source pool has the best genes for sprinting. No we don’t – it could be a combination of ancestries that appear “black” (even some ‘perfect’ mix like 70% West African, 10% Central African, 10% European, and 10% Native American that gives the best chance for the best sprinting genes), it could be some cultural factor, it could be some quirk of diet or upbringing, etc. There’s certainly a case to be made for genetics – even some genetic evidence in the form of those genes that have been discussed before. But that’s not enough to conclude that it’s just West African genes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/990 "2015-03-27T16:21:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What I’m challenging is the assumption that all black sprinters are of “West African” ancestry, and I’m challenging the rote dismissal of the various other ancestries that are undoubtedly included among the top black sprinters. No one is making that assumption, and no one is dismissing other possible ancestries. “On average” is different from “all”. Please tell us you recognize this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/991 "2015-03-27T16:24:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No one is making that assumption, and no one is dismissing other possible ancestries. “On average” is different from “all”. > > Please tell us you recognize this. > > Regards, > Shodan Apparently you haven’t been reading **CP** ’s posts, in which he explicitly discounts any possible contribution from other ancestries. Recommend that you do. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/992 "2015-03-27T16:39:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Apparently you haven’t been reading **CP** ’s posts, in which he explicitly discounts any possible contribution from other ancestries. > > Recommend that you do. I have read them. He says things like this - > [@](#): > > It is a common misperception that when studying two cohorts for genetically-driven skillsets, the cohorts must be genetically monolithic. And please don’t sign your posts with my name. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/993 "2015-03-27T16:44:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I have read them. He says things like this - He also says things like this: > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And we also know it is not european genes driving success because the highest performance outcome is not white; it’s black. So he discounts that any genes other than West African could possibly be contributing. > [@](#): > > And please don’t sign your posts with my name. > > Regards, > Shodan To survive the **Shodan** -level of smugness, you must become the **Shodan** -level of smugness. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/994 "2015-03-27T17:20:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To survive the **Shodan** -level of smugness, you must become the **Shodan** -level of smugness. > > Regards, > Shodan Black, White, Green, Purple, West African, European, Martian or Lilliputian, please tell me you realize how lame that is. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/995 "2015-03-27T17:24:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Black, White, Green, Purple, West African, European, Martian or Lilliputian, please tell me you realize how lame that is. > > :rolleyes: You just don’t realize the majesty and grandeur of **Shodan** ’s epic smugness. It’s okay – it took me a while to recognize it too. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/996 "2015-03-27T18:10:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To survive the **Shodan** -level of smugness, you must become the **Shodan** -level of smugness. > > Regards, > Shodan Not here you don’t. Warning issued and never do it again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/997 "2015-03-27T18:13:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Not here you don’t. Warning issued and never do it again. Understood. Apologies, **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/998 "2015-03-27T20:55:57Z")
No worries he replied smugly. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/999 "2015-03-27T21:01:30Z")
To get back to the discussion, it seems to me that **CP** is explicitly rejecting the possibility of any other genetic explanation other than West African genetics as the cause of the disparities in athletic outcomes. While I think the genetic explanation is a reasonable hypothesis (though I’m not ready to conclude that it’s the best one) for disparities in athletics, in light of the cited information about genes that are specifically tied to sprinting ability, there could be other genetic causes (as well as cultural and environmental causes such as whatever is helping Jamaicans dominate the sport) that would be consistent with the disparities – I’ve offered the possibility that some combination of various populations of African, European, and Native American ancestry might provide some individuals with the best chance of ‘maximum sprinting potential’ based on various genes that are more or less common on average in these different groups. Not that this tells us anything about the main topic (intelligence) of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/1000 "2015-03-27T23:17:15Z")
Finland has (or used to have) the highest per capita representation in Internet activity. Has to be genetic! ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948/1001 "2015-03-28T08:56:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To get back to the discussion, it seems to me that **CP** is explicitly rejecting the possibility of any other genetic explanation other than West African genetics as the cause of the disparities in athletic outcomes. While I think the genetic explanation is a reasonable hypothesis (though I’m not ready to conclude that it’s the best one) for disparities in athletics, in light of the cited information about genes that are specifically tied to sprinting ability, there could be other genetic causes (as well as cultural and environmental causes such as whatever is helping Jamaicans dominate the sport) that would be consistent with the disparities – I’ve offered the possibility that some combination of various populations of African, European, and Native American ancestry might provide some individuals with the best chance of ‘maximum sprinting potential’ based on various genes that are more or less common on average in these different groups. > > Not that this tells us anything about the main topic (intelligence) of this thread. 100 years ago, europeans ruled the sprinting sports scene and helped themselves to the glory of success. When sprinting was opened up to blacks, europeans lost their domination. I see no evidence they ceded their glory voluntarily. The average gene pools of those two cohorts have been separate by 65,000 years. White times for sprinting have not slowed down. Whites haven’t lost a taste for sprinting glory. White advantages for optimum pursuit of glory have not been diminished. A much simpler thing has happened: a new gene pool in the mix. And all the genetic science to date supports that there are broad average differences for the specific physiology driving success. Your whackamole list of possible nurturing explanations implies there is some sort of cyclical rotation for various cohorts as these nurturing influences ebb and fade. Nothing in the real world suggests that. Nothing. The reward for sports glory is insanely high for all. When the entry gate is opened, the genetically gifted can, and do, excel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-black-pupils-in-the-us-underachieve-academically-when-one-factors-out-poverty/482948.md?page=51)