# Why do Brazillians & Portuguese dislike each other?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 27, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667 "2010-06-27T03:55:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/1 "2010-06-27T03:55:03Z")
Word on the street is that Brazillians and (European) Portuguese dislike each other – at least that was one issue raised due to the World Cup match. (I am talking about in general, not just some stupid football rivaly).
Is this true? Americans generally have an affectation for Great Britain; even with two wars betwixt them. I think the Brazillian independence took place without more violence, and I believe less.
So why the hate? Or is there no hate?
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### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/2 "2010-06-27T04:06:06Z")
Two peoples divided by a common language, I guess.
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### Author:  [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/3 "2010-06-27T04:35:30Z")
I don’t know if it can really be called “hate,” at least from the Brazilian perspective. From what I’ve observed among my Brazilian friends, they love to mock the Portuguese–the Brazilian equivalent of a “dumb blonde” joke (or Polish jokes from the 1980s) always involves a Portuguese man, who is invariably named Manuel or Joaquim, and he usually runs a bakery. And, of course, he talks funny (at least to Brazilian ears–Brazilians seem to be especially amused by the lisping sound that European Portuguese make. Not exactly a lisp, per se, but a tendency to enunciate an “s” sound as a “sh”).
I suppose this humor could be regarded as a subversive act, recasting the colonizer as a helpless imbecile. But I’m not sure if the Brazilians (at least, not the ones I know) think of it that way, and I don’t think they intend their jokes as mean-spirited. Perhaps the Portuguese feel differently about it, however.
When I visited Portugal a few years ago, in the company of a Brazilian, I didn’t notice any overt hostility towards her from the locals. For her part, she seemed to strongly admire Portuguese culture (despite her love for jokes about the Portuguese), insisting we had to have “real Portuguese” vinho verde (“green” wine) and bacalhau (codfish) while listening to a fado. Probably the Brazilian equivalent of an American going to London to have high tea at Harrods or a pint at a pub.
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/4 "2010-06-27T05:07:46Z")
> [@sassyfras](#):
>
> Americans generally have an affectation for Great Britain
Only Madonna.
psst… I think you mean “affection”
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### Author:  [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/5 "2010-06-27T06:58:02Z")
It’s not a real dislike it’s more like regional rivalry. Like Northsiders (Cubs fans) and Southsiders (Sox fans) in Chicago hate each other. But then they all love each other during the Stanley Cup 🙂
The real issue is language.
Portuguese is the most lopside example of a major tongue.
About 210 million people speak Portugese as their native tongue. About 190.5 million are in Brazil and about 10.5 million are in Portugal.
See the problem? Brazil has become the culture center of the Portuguese language. This is very irritating to the Portugese in Portugal.
It’s the Brazillian TV shows and radio shows and books and such that are driving the Portuguese language not the ones in Portugal.
OK this has also happened in England, the USA has major control on how Enblish is spoken, but the UK isn’t nearly as small in terms of population or TV, Radio and culture.
London easily competes with New York City. But Lisbon is behind Rio and Sao Paulo in terms of influence worldwide.
So that is what fuels the rivalry. The Portuguese in Portuguese see the Brazillians as an upstart that is unfairly leading the way in the Portuguese speaking world.
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/6 "2010-06-27T11:04:35Z")
> [@Markxxx](#):
>
> OK this has also happened in England, the USA has major control on how Enblish is spoken, but the UK isn’t nearly as small in terms of population or TV, Radio and culture.
>
> London easily competes with New York City. But Lisbon is behind Rio and Sao Paulo in terms of influence worldwide.
These are both interesting observations, so I’ll add one more: The British managed to convince all of their Colonials that upper-class British English was the _proper_ way to speak. This hung on in America right through the 19th Century, along with a generally servile feeling towards the Islands that lead to _Moby Dick_ being panned by American critics because the British ones got a mutilated edition. The majority of this feeling is _h_istorical and no longer colors our discourse, but Americans still think RP is anywhere from ‘educated and wealthy’ to ‘snobbish serial killer.’
(“Bri’ish”, on the other 'and, is just silly.)
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/7 "2010-06-27T13:34:24Z")
> [@Gotterfunken](#):
>
> I don’t know if it can really be called “hate,” at least from the Brazilian perspective. From what I’ve observed among my Brazilian friends, they love to mock the Portuguese–the Brazilian equivalent of a “dumb blonde” joke (or Polish jokes from the 1980s) always involves a Portuguese man, who is invariably named Manuel or Joaquim, and he usually runs a bakery. And, of course, he talks funny (at least to Brazilian ears–Brazilians seem to be especially amused by the lisping sound that European Portuguese make. Not exactly a lisp, per se, but a tendency to enunciate an “s” sound as a “sh”).
>
> I suppose this humor could be regarded as a subversive act, recasting the colonizer as a helpless imbecile. But I’m not sure if the Brazilians (at least, not the ones I know) think of it that way, and I don’t think they intend their jokes as mean-spirited. Perhaps the Portuguese feel differently about it, however.
>
> When I visited Portugal a few years ago, in the company of a Brazilian, I didn’t notice any overt hostility towards her from the locals. For her part, she seemed to strongly admire Portuguese culture (despite her love for jokes about the Portuguese), insisting we had to have “real Portuguese” vinho verde (“green” wine) and bacalhau (codfish) while listening to a fado. Probably the Brazilian equivalent of an American going to London to have high tea at Harrods or a pint at a pub.
The difference in the way the language is spoken in the two countries is very pronounced. The “sh” for “s” is primarily at the end of a word, never at the beginning, but that’s really no stranger than the Brazilian way of pronouncing “d” as “j” or “t” as “ch”. For example, the phrase for ‘good morning’ is _Bom dia._ While _bom_ is pronounced the same in both countries, _dia_ is ‘dee-uh’ in Portugal and ‘gee-uh’ in Brazil. This creates a problem for a foreigner like me who spent six months learning to speak Brazilian, then was posted to Lisbon. It was very difficult for me to understand what was being said.
Brazilians are also a much more effusive people than the Portuguese and more ethnically diverse. The music is more lively, and the people more attractive and demonstrative (IMO). The Portuguese are a fairly dour people, and the society more closed to outside people and ideas (although it’s getting better). It would seem natural for some friendly mocking to take place at the expense of the Portuguese, although I think they save their worst jibes for the Nordestinos in their own country.
Oh, and for the record, _vinho verde_ is generally undrinkable. Portuguese reds, on the other hand: _maravilhosa!_
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/8 "2010-06-27T14:03:35Z")
> [@Markxxx](#):
>
> …
> OK this has also happened in England, the USA has major control on how Enblish is spoken, but the UK isn’t …
I think Enblish is a perfect term for the new American-centric language which isn’t England-centric any more. Good coinage.
And in 40 years, when the number of Chinese who actually speak English regularly has far surpassed the number of Americans who do, we can rename it Enclish.
Or was that just a typo by **Markxxx**?
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### Author:  [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/9 "2010-06-27T20:41:33Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> And in 40 years, when the number of Chinese who actually speak English regularly has far surpassed the number of Americans who do, we can rename it Enclish.
No no, that’s Engrish. 🆒
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/10 "2010-06-28T02:21:13Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#):
>
> No no, that’s Engrish. 🆒
Now you’re just being redicurous.
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### Author:  [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/11 "2010-06-28T04:47:37Z")
> [@sassyfras](#):
>
> Word on the street is that Brazillians and (European) Portuguese dislike each other – at least that was one issue raised due to the World Cup match. (I am talking about in general, not just some stupid football rivaly).
>
> Is this true? Americans generally have an affectation for Great Britain; even with two wars betwixt them. I think the Brazillian independence took place without more violence, and I believe less.
>
> So why the hate? Or is there no hate?
I’m not sure I saw great affection from Great Britain towards the U.S. when their World Cup match ended in a draw. 🙂
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### Author:  [@kim\_jung\_il](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kim_jung_il)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/12 "2010-06-28T05:06:23Z")
> [@hogarth](#):
>
> I’m not sure I saw great affection from Great Britain towards the U.S. when their World Cup match ended in a draw. 🙂
England is not equal to Great Britain 😉
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### Author:  [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/13 "2010-06-28T05:23:33Z")
Sorry my bad, a typo
🙂
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/14 "2010-06-28T14:26:23Z")
Well, basically, Portugal raped Brazil for 300 years. The portuguese king took one seventh of all the gold, silver, and diamonds extracted from Brazil, and gave nothing back. Crooked royal monopolies on salt, sugar, and beans drained money from the Brazilian people, and transferred it to Portugal. Brazilians today think of “Monoel” as pretty much a dull-witted dope-who plays football with a rock, and cannot get out of his own way. Brazil is a dynamic culture, with its own music and literature.
Curiously, the Portuguese are better businessmsn than most Brazilians-many of the restaurants and hotels in Rio de Janeiro are owned by portuguese expats.
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### Author:  [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/15 "2010-06-28T14:53:09Z")
> [@Markxxx](#):
>
> London easily competes with New York City. But Lisbon is behind Rio and Sao Paulo in terms of influence worldwide.
I think this a good point. You also have to figure that the British had a global empire that came of age just as as modern communications and transportation systems were being developed and that lasted well into the 20th century, while Portugal’s empire was pretty much dead in the water by the early 19th century. Yeah, they managed to hang on to a handful of African colonies and a few enclaves in Asia, but their glory days were far behind.
Also, as Ralph124c alluded to above, Portuguese colonial rule was notorious for exercising many of the negative aspects of colonialism but conferring few of the benefits. The British, while not exactly benevolent rulers, oftentimes respected and even helped reform local institutions while also setting up a modern infrastructure and economy. As a result there still exists a certain degree of admiration for them in their former colonies.
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### Author:  [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/16 "2010-06-28T15:27:11Z")
> [@hogarth](#):
>
> I’m not sure I saw great affection from Great Britain towards the U.S. when their World Cup match ended in a draw. 🙂
Or when they burned Washington DC during the War of 1812. :eek:
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/17 "2010-06-28T15:36:09Z")
Brazilian? I thought this was a pubic hair discussion. 😉
Is that what the people really call themselves?
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### Author:  [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/18 "2010-06-28T15:42:49Z")
My impression is that Brazilians don’t give much thought to Portugal or Portuguese culture. I’ve never heard any Portuguese music on the radio, nor have I seen Portuguese television shows on TV. Aside from the Portuguese jokes, I don’t think there is any malice on the part of Brazilians just indifference.
I was in Portugal 10 years ago and everyone was perfectly nice even though I spoke with Portuguese with a Brazilian accent and used Brazilian terms for things. They had less trouble understanding me than I did them since they get a lot of Brazilian media and are a lot more accustomed to the accent.
Continental Portuguese is not considered a prestige accent in Brazil like Received Pronunciation would be in the U.S. Few Brazilians of means would go study abroad to Portugal, they would be far more likely to go study in the States, the UK or even France.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/19 "2010-06-28T15:52:58Z")
Brazilians consider Portuguese language and heritage a distinquishing attribute in South America, where the other countries were originally established by Spain. They also notice the rest of the world often lumps Portuguese and Spanish together as minor variations of the same thing. So they maintain a strong tie to other Portuguese people, in Portugal, Cape Verde, the Azores, and even Goa India. The rivalry is friendly though.
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### Author:  [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-brazillians-portuguese-dislike-each-other/544667/20 "2010-06-28T16:02:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Well, basically, Portugal raped Brazil for 300 years.
Rape is such a strong word. I think you meant _procured_.
😉
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