# Why do breaststroke and butterfly even exist? And why is freestyle limited in time underwater? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 10, 2016, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322 "2016-08-10T10:34:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/81 "2016-08-16T16:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Edward The Head** : > > It would be like saying runners could use springs on their shoes to help them run a bit faster. You mean, like almost everyone does (aside from those few who run barefoot)? And using racewalking as an analogy is a really bad argument for the claim that restricted strokes aren’t silly. Almost everyone considers racewalking silly, too. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/82 "2016-08-16T17:08:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Interestingly, though, if you’re in the middle of running a marathon, and you for some reason feel like racewalking for a couple of minutes – _that’s_ cool, right? They don’t care, you’re not breaking any rules; just head for the finish line. And if you want to do two-thirds of a triple jump on your approach for the long jump, I’m guessing that’s okay, too. If so, then I figure it makes sense to ask of swimming what we do of track: _shouldn’t there also be a just-do-what-works version of this oddball event?_ We do, it’s called freestyle and with the exception of being underwater more then 15 meters, pulling on the lane line and pushing off the bottom of the pool you’re allowed to swim however you feel like. \* It’s like asking though if in the hurdles if I can run around them instead of going over them. Or the steeple chase if I can just avoid the big puddle of water. That’s not the point of the race. Asking why there are four different events in swimming is like me asking why there are at least three different types of events in track that involve running, running, hurdles and steeple. I guess we could include race walking too, yet I don’t hear people saying we should just have one type of footrace. The OP came about by asking about butterfly and breast, the butterfly evolved out of breast, and they were swum as breast until the 50s until they split them apart. \*with the exception of the IM portion of the freestyle where it can’t be the other three strokes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/83 "2016-08-16T17:14:30Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > We do, it’s called freestyle and with the exception of being underwater more then 15 meters, pulling on the lane line and pushing off the bottom of the pool you’re allowed to swim however you feel like. \* > > It’s like asking though if in the hurdles if I can run around them instead of going over them. Or the steeple chase if I can just avoid the big puddle of water. That’s not the point of the race. Asking why there are four different events in swimming is like me asking why there are at least three different types of events in track that involve running, running, hurdles and steeple. No, I’m agreeing that the point of the breaststroke and the butterfly can be thought of as being like unto the point of the hurdles and the steeplechase; I just figure the logical upshot of doing so is to figure that, just like we also have a straight-up “run” version, there should be a _truly_ freestyle swimming event where that whole ‘underwater’ bit you gloss over is allowed, if a competitor is so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/84 "2016-08-16T17:19:23Z")
There can be a lot of questions about logic of the restricted swimming events but I don’t see any of them precluding an unrestricted event. Fins and paddles don’t really need to be part of it, but if there’s a way to swim faster unaided I don’t see a reason not to have that kind of event. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/85 "2016-08-16T17:43:33Z")
If they allowed unlimited time underwater, racers would pass out and risk drowning. I’ve heard it happening in practices at the high school and club level. Part of normal training is swimming underwater for some number of lengths. Kids have passed out while underwater when they went too long or hyperventilated before starting out. I have no doubt that if a big race was on the line, competitive swimmers would stay underwater much longer than is safe and would black out. So from a safety standpoint, they couldn’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![moojja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@moojja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moojja)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/86 "2016-08-16T17:56:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > There can be a lot of questions about logic of the restricted swimming events but I don’t see any of them precluding an unrestricted event. Fins and paddles don’t really need to be part of it, but if there’s a way to swim faster unaided I don’t see a reason not to have that kind of event. Because nobody care enough to host that kind of event or add that event to a swim meet. \ Sports doesn’t happen in a vacuum. If not enough competitors or organizers care enough to add a new event, it won’t happen. If a new event is added, an old event might need to be removed due to time/space. As it stands, the swim federations don’t think it’s important. It might be an artificial limit, but that is how the organizer sees the sport. If they’re going to add an event, personally I would like to see some mix-gendered relays. I think that would be more interesting than your suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/87 "2016-08-16T18:11:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Talking about “rules of the game” is a canard. This is a _race_, not a game. The analogue to basketball would be water polo. > > In what we would call running races, presumably there is no prohibition against walking, or even crawling. You are asked to get from start to finish as fast as you can, under your own power, without using wheels. In some shorter formats you are expected to stay in your lane; even in longer ones you must stay on the course. > > I would like to see an event in swimming in which you are expected to stay in your lane and not use machinery, but other than that, you can walk on the bottom if you like (not that this would be helpful). Another event that allowed flippers and such would also be interesting. How would this harm the events with more restrictive rules? Is the fear that it would no longer be impressive to swim more slowly than an elderly person can walk with luggage? As has been said, a race is still a sport, and there are still rules. For example, the rules about what to do in the case of false starts have been changed several times over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/88 "2016-08-16T18:12:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If they allowed unlimited time underwater, racers would pass out and risk drowning. I’ve heard it happening in practices at the high school and club level. Part of normal training is swimming underwater for some number of lengths. Kids have passed out while underwater when they went too long or hyperventilated before starting out. I have no doubt that if a big race was on the line, competitive swimmers would stay underwater much longer than is safe and would black out. So from a safety standpoint, they couldn’t allow it. Which brings back: why isn’t bottled oxygen permitted? 😃 > [@moojja](#): > > If they’re going to add an event, personally I would like to see some mix-gendered relays. I think that would be more interesting than your suggestion. Oh, I’d love to see mixed relays! ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/89 "2016-08-16T18:14:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …You are asked to get from start to finish as fast as you can, **under your own power, without using wheels**. … bolding mine Well, why _can’t_ you use wheels? Why must it be under your “own power”? Why have artificial regulations limiting what should be a contest of raw speed? There’s an easy answer: It’s because track fundamentally _isn’t_ about getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, it’s about getting there as fast as possible under certain limitations. Why the limitations? Because the people who love the sport want these limitations. There’s a market–a very big market–for races where people actually run, not just ride bikes or drive cars or use gigantic rubber bands to catapult them forward. Using bikes, or engines, or rubber bands might be of great interest to some potential viewers and participants, and would definitely improve competitors’ times–but would be seen _by the people who already love the sport_ as uninteresting and as a bastardization. Same with swimming. There’s a big market–a very big market–for races of the type currently being swum, where certain maneuvers are acceptable and others are not. Swimmers and their fans are the people who drive the sport, not the people who watch swimming for one week every four years. If the swimmers and their fans want changes, then the sport will change. The opinions of folks who don’t already follow the sport really don’t matter–any more than the opinions of non-fans who think that the NFL should go to two-hand touch, that figure skaters should be allowed to do backflips, or that soccer ought to eliminate the offside rule Sports are the way they are because that’s how the people involved in them want them to be. “Logic” has very little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/90 "2016-08-16T18:56:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No, I’m agreeing that the point of the breaststroke and the butterfly can be thought of as being like unto the point of the hurdles and the steeplechase; I just figure the logical upshot of doing so is to figure that, just like we also have a straight-up “run” version, there should be a _truly_ freestyle swimming event where that whole ‘underwater’ bit you gloss over is allowed, if a competitor is so inclined. Honestly, I think the reason they don’t allow more then the 15 meters underwater is to keep the rules similar between the strokes. That rule started with the backstroke because as shown in the video I posted earlier fully underwater kicking is faster then the current world record for back. It probably makes remembering all the rules that much easier. I don’t think that underwater kicking is faster then the crawl so no one really cares. > [@moojja](#): > > Because nobody care enough to host that kind of event or add that event to a swim meet. \ They actually do have these kinds of events at meets. I’ve seen events where anything goes, I’ve seen relays where they exchange coconuts, I’ve seen raft relays, they can be fun, but not everyone sticks around for them. I tried finding times for those events, but couldn’t, to see how using flippers and such changed the times. > [@moojja](#): > > If they’re going to add an event, personally I would like to see some mix-gendered relays. I think that would be more interesting than your suggestion. They do mix-gendered relays at a lot of meets, even the top end swimmers do them. I kind of wish they would add them at the Olympics, though I think the US would dominate them as well. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/91 "2016-08-16T19:30:31Z")
> [@dofe](#): > > It’s not a canard – just because a sport is a “race” doesn’t automatically make it devoid of rules. > > Look at racewalking – it’s certainly a racing event, in the sense that the point is to get to the finish line faster than your opponents. Yet, the sport also has its own set of rules restricting the participants’ movements (e.g., the loss of contact rule). Could you move faster if you ignored the rules and instead moved your legs in a way that both feet are off the ground at the same time? Sure, but you would then be running and no longer racewalking. This is absolutely true. And if the Olympics had racewalking, but did not have anything like the 100m race that Usain Bolt just won for an unprecedented third straight time, I would find _that_ ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/92 "2016-08-16T20:06:34Z")
For those interested, there is a sport called [FinSwimming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finswimming) that has fins, underwater swimming with and without breathing apparatus, and all sorts of classes and categories. There are several mentions of safety in relation to underwater swimming without breathing apparatus. Times are quite a bit faster than sport swimming. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/93 "2016-08-16T20:24:15Z")
One good thing about having a variety of variations of a sport is that it allows many more people to experience the joy of being a competitive athlete. If there was just freestyle, the number of competitive swimmers would be much smaller. A top swimmer in one stroke may not be competitive in any of the other strokes. This is especially great for kids. The more opportunities a kid has to be competitive, the more opportunities to experience the physical and emotional benefits of being competitive. If there was just one stroke, lots of kids wouldn’t be involved with swimming. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/94 "2016-08-17T08:42:15Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Personally, I’d like to see swimming races with unrestricted gear (well, except for powered propulsion). So I’d allow low-drag clothing, flippers, hand-webbing, etc and even bottled oxygen, if they thought it improved their speed. > > I’m curious how fast humans can propel themselves through water. They did that. They allowed ‘supersuits’ which meant swimmers were decked out head-to-toe in suits designed - initially - on hydrodynamic principles relating to shark or dolphin skin (they eventually got to the point where the suits were more streamlined and faster than anything in nature). What it meant was the race was won by whoever had the best suit at the time. World Records were being destroyed all over the place (most still stand today, years later), and, because of sponsorship issues, some swimmers who were sponsored by, say, Adidas, wouldn’t compete in races whenever Adidas didn’t have the fastest suit. But, wait a few months, and maybe Adidas would make the next breakthrough. The race was won by the swimmer with the best suit engineer. Just like if you allow drugs into the Olympics, the race will be won by the competitor with the best chemist (probably happening now, but that’s a different argument). The cycling bikes went through this in the 80s - eventually they set standard rules on what was allowed. Every sport sets limits on the technology - you can’t cork your bat, there are rules around what types of footwear you can use, you can’t use a 20-foot long foil in fencing. The fastest human-powered method (so far) of travelling through water is a bicycle-driven hydrofoil. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/95 "2016-08-18T14:22:28Z")
I’m not sure I can articulate the distinction clearly - heck, I am not sure the distinction is clear - but ISTM that the fundamental question of a race is “who is the fastest, with what nature gave you” and not "who has the best equipment. Obviously there is a huge gray area, as witness **Wallaby** ’s mention about the hydrodynamic suits. But disallowing flippers is different from disallowing underwater swims of more than fifteen meters. And it is not just arbitrary - flippers change the fundamental question of a race. You can certainly have races with equipment - horse racing, NASCAR, Formula One, bicycling, etc. But the question of a swimming race is “who is the fastest swimmer”. The more equipment you add, the more it becomes “who has the faster boat” and that’s a valid question, but not nearly the same question. There is/was a similar controversy in powerlifting, where they compete in the squat, the bench press, and the deadlift. Lifters started by wrapping their knees in elastic bandages, because the bandages stored some of the energy of the descent in the squat and made it a little easier to come back up. Then they discovered that if they squatted in really tight jeans, they could squat more. This led to the invention of super suits, which are made of very strong, elastic materials that cover the hips and lower back, and store energy and give it back on ascent. They are hideously uncomfortable and they make it very difficult to walk normally. If you watch a fully geared powerlifter, with his knees wrapped and his suit on, he waddles like a penguin and it is almost impossible for him to bend at the hips or knees. But they add hundreds of pounds to your limit squat. Terry Todd tells the anecdote of one of his lifters whose limit squat raw was 473. It took half an hour and several scraped knuckles to get into the suit. After he got it on, he squatted 600. Now they have bench shirts, that are essentially fabric springs across the chest that store the energy of lowering the bar to the chest. They also sort of squeeze the fat of obese lifters, which many super heavyweights are, so the belly and chest fat is pushed forward and up and the lifter only has to lower the bar a few inches. A lifter in a bench shirt cannot lower his arms to his sides. But wearing a bench shirt, [someone benched 1000+ pounds](http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/left_field/2004/08/one_giant_lift_for_mankind.html). Does that “count”? It depends on what you mean by “count”. Disagreement over what “counts” is why we have both geared and ungeared powerlifting competitions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/96 "2016-08-18T14:53:33Z")
Interesting! I suppose we’d have to go back to “Olympics Classic” and have everyone be naked, to eliminate all such concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/97 "2016-08-18T15:18:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obviously there is a huge gray area, as witness **Wallaby** ’s mention about the hydrodynamic suits. But disallowing flippers is different from disallowing underwater swims of more than fifteen meters. And it is not just arbitrary - flippers change the fundamental question of a race. The problem is that people can and do die because of [holding their breath](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/05/29/410331432/breath-holding-in-the-pool-can-spark-sudden-blackouts-and-death), even high end swimmers have died by trying to swim too far underwater. One of my coaches had a kid die, not during practice, by trying to hold his breath for too long doing laps. Again, underwater kicking is faster on your back, but I don’t think it’s faster for any other stroke. They at first said only 15 meters for backstroke to make people swim backstroke. I think they added the rule for the other two strokes to make every rule similar. Plus now they know it can be deadly, enough that it has been banned in practices. I doubt people want to watch swimmers get pulled from the pool during the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322/98 "2016-08-18T15:39:56Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Again, underwater kicking is faster on your back, but I don’t think it’s faster for any other stroke. I don’t think that’s settled. Plenty of people think a well-executed fish kick is faster than the crawl. From [here](http://nautil.us/issue/25/water/is-this-new-swim-stroke-the-fastest-yet): > [@](#): > > In the last few decades, stroke mechanic experts have discovered that swimming under the surface is faster than swimming on the surface. > … > All swimming at the surface shares the same speed restriction. “You’re always limited by your hull speed,” says Ryan Atkison, a sport biomechanist at the Canadian Sport Institute Ontario. It’s a nautical principle that also applies to swimmers. The theory goes that a swimmer on the surface cannot go faster than the bow wave that he or she creates. The bow wave increases with swim speed until, in theory, it stretches along the whole length of the swimmer’s body. Atkison says that the maximum speed is one body-length per second, which is about 1.9 to 2.6 meters per second for a swimmer about 2 meters (6 feet, 5 inches) tall. > > “You can’t go any faster than that unless you climb up over top of that wave,” says Atkison. “Some animals can, like dolphins can porpoise and jump over top of that bow wave, but humans can’t physically climb out of that trough,” he says. “The only real way to get faster is to be better under water, where we don’t really have those upper limits on speed.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-breaststroke-and-butterfly-even-exist-and-why-is-freestyle-limited-in-time-underwater/762322.md?page=4)