# Why do Canada and Australia have so few people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 25, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071 "2016-02-25T04:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/281 "2016-02-29T16:44:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, to be fair, some off the grid homesteader once complained in some blog somewhere he couldn’t find free land here, so Canada must have a system akin to medieval feudalism. 😉 Wake up, sheeple! Claim in a homesteader divorce proceeding (or squatter’s divorce proceeding if you were to believe the owner who actually had title to the land, who kept getting arrested because the squatters grew pot in his fields): “Our home had running water” My client’s Answer: “The only running water we had was me running with the bucket.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/282 "2016-02-29T16:53:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In Ontario at least, land taxes are set by the municipality, unless it is located in an unincorporated municipality. Needless to say, such loopholes are not encouraged, as property taxes are the main source of municipal funding. 😉 > > [http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/Page10240.aspx](http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/Page10240.aspx) That went into the mix when deciding to, for the most part, stop residential purchases of Crown land in Ontario until the land was first brought into municipalities. People require infrastructure and services, which in turn requires a municipal tax base. Want to see what happens to places without a municipal tax base? Have a look at our most of our First Nation reserves. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/283 "2016-02-29T17:07:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In Ontario at least, land taxes are set by the municipality, unless it is located in an unincorporated municipality. Needless to say, such loopholes are not encouraged, as property taxes are the main source of municipal funding. 😉 Oh, land taxes are set by the local government in Kansas, too, and the appraisal is done by the county office. Property taxes are a major source of funding for cities, counties, and other local units, and such loopholes are despised by local officials. However, the appraisal must conform to state law and the decisions of the state courts, and the state says land used for agriculture must be taxed as agricultural land, without reference to what its value might be for residences, industry, or other uses. A local official who appraises a hay meadow in the middle of downtown as anything other than a hay meadow is going to get slapped down, no matter what the highest and best use might be. A number of states have similar laws, although details vary and in some places recapture of one or several years back taxes will happen if the land is converted to non-agricultural use. In some places, “wildlife management” is a valid use that precludes taxing at market value; timber production is also typically considered an agricultural use. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/284 "2016-02-29T17:19:27Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > You’re refusing to compare apples to apples. As has been pointed out to you, like dozens of times now, Toronto’s housing prices are on par, or even lower than, many other major cities around the world of similar stature. That’s what happens when lots of people want to live in a particular area. The way you get cheaper housing? Move to where it’s cheaper, which you apparently regard as akin to death, because they don’t have the things that big cities inevitably have. And if you built another city like Toronto - guess what - the housing prices would rise to approximate Toronto’s, because lots of people would want to live there. Just for fun. In Google you can type in “average home price in […]” and it spits out a number. My very first comparison (honest): Average Home Price in Florida: $214,900 Average Home Price in Nova Scotia: $236,000 Is anyone that delusional that they think there’s as much going on in Nova Scotia as in Florida? It should be like 1/10th of the price. People should be getting incentives to go and live there. I’m sorry but stuff like this is practically an national embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/285 "2016-02-29T17:22:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, to be fair, some off the grid homesteader once complained in some blog somewhere he couldn’t find free land here, so Canada must have a system akin to medieval feudalism. 😉 Wake up, sheeple! I’m sorry that this topic is in such bad taste to discuss. I’ll stick to more Canadian-approved topics in the future such as “roll up the rim to win” and whether Don Cherry crossed the line last night. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/286 "2016-02-29T17:24:49Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Just for fun. In Google you can type in “average home price in […]” and it spits out a number. My very first comparison (honest): > > Average Home Price in Florida: $214,900 > Average Home Price in Nova Scotia: $236,000 > > Is anyone that delusional that they think there’s as much going on in Nova Scotia as in Florida? It should be like 1/10th of the price. People should be getting incentives to go and live there. > > I’m sorry but stuff like this is practically an national embarrassment. First, those prices are in different currencies (Canadian v. U.S. dollars). Second, why should the house in Nova Scotia be only a tenth the price? Some people apparently LIKE living in Nova Scotia; I wouldn’t live in Florida if you paid me to. What is the rational economic argument? Third: median family income in Nova Scotia: [$70,020](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm) CAD (2013) Florida: [$44,250](http://www.countyhealthrankings.org/app/florida/2013/measure/additional/63/data) USD (2011) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/287 "2016-02-29T17:27:23Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Is anyone that delusional that they think there’s as much going on in Nova Scotia as in Florida? > . . . > I’m sorry but stuff like this is practically an national embarrassment. Just because the best parts of Florida are going to be under water due to climate change, and just because Florida has an infestation of Florida Men, is no reason for you to be embarrassed (well, actually it is reason to for you to be embarrassed by Florida, but it’s not polite for us to point and laugh). ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/288 "2016-02-29T17:32:00Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > **Just because the best parts of Florida are going to be under water due to climate change** , and just because Florida has an infestation of Florida Men, is no reason for you to be embarrassed (well, actually it is reason to for you to be embarrassed by Florida, but it’s not polite for us to point and laugh). Bolding added - by that logic Florida land should be sky-high in value. After all, in this thread I keep hearing that private Canadian land is so expensive because it’s all surrounded by horrible things on all sides. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/289 "2016-02-29T17:39:25Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Bolding added - by that logic Florida land should be sky-high in value. After all, in this thread I keep hearing that private Canadian land is so expensive because it’s all surrounded by horrible things on all sides. I’m sorry–what thread are you reading? Canadian land in desirable places is expensive because there’s not more of it; the mountains surrounding Vancouver, e.g., limit the city’s growth. The mountains don’t make the land expensive; the mountains make the land **scarce**. Scarcity when combined with desirability = high prices. Particularly desirable locations in Florida are also expensive, but Florida generally has lots of land today (give it a few decades and the land will be underwater, but for right now it is available). ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/290 "2016-02-29T17:46:42Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I’m sorry–what thread are you reading? > > Canadian land in desirable places is expensive because there’s not more of it; the mountains surrounding Vancouver, e.g., limit the city’s growth. The mountains don’t make the land expensive; the mountains make the land **scarce**. Scarcity when combined with desirability = high prices. > > Particularly desirable locations in Florida are also expensive, but Florida generally has lots of land today (give it a few decades and the land will be underwater, but for right now it is available). As I’ve been saying, it’s an artificial scarcity in Canada. Most of the land is off the market! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/291 "2016-02-29T17:48:31Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Just for fun. In Google you can type in “average home price in […]” and it spits out a number. My very first comparison (honest): > > Average Home Price in Florida: $214,900 > Average Home Price in Nova Scotia: $236,000 > > Is anyone that delusional that they think there’s as much going on in Nova Scotia as in Florida? It should be like 1/10th of the price. People should be getting incentives to go and live there. > > I’m sorry but stuff like this is practically an national embarrassment. Ah, the old “want to buy some swampland in Florida?” gambit. > [@Muffin](#): > > I have some news for you that will find very hard to take: it was your poorly regulated economy and it’s pathetic excuse for a banking system that caused the difference in housing prices between Canada and the USA, and not our Crown land up in the Barrens or the Rockies. I was right. You did find the news hard to take. Nonetheless, the fact remains that your housing market tanked due to the misfeasance of your banking system. It’s no surprise that a state with a high number of vacation homes bottomed out, for when folks hit hard times, vacation properties go first. Once you get back on your feet, Florida home prices with catch up with Nova Scotia, which has a fairly flat economy. Next time, don’t base your conclusions on Google spit. Put some effort into looking at why your housing market tanked. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/292 "2016-02-29T17:55:42Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > First, those prices are in different currencies (Canadian v. U.S. dollars). > > Second, why should the house in Nova Scotia be only a tenth the price? Some people apparently LIKE living in Nova Scotia; I wouldn’t live in Florida if you paid me to. What is the rational economic argument? > > Third: median family income in Nova Scotia: [$70,020](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm) CAD (2013) > > Florida: [$44,250](http://www.countyhealthrankings.org/app/florida/2013/measure/additional/63/data) USD (2011) My guess is you’ve never been to the Maritimes - it’s pretty nice. Like, I like Calgary, but if I was told my job was moving to Halifax, I’d be fine with that as it’s a pretty nice city. Anywhere in Florida, not so much. I’m kind of amused by your self-contradictory ideas here - existing Canadian cities are too dismal to consider moving to, yet we should start opening up new locations where precisely no one lives and no facilities whatsoever exist. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/293 "2016-02-29T18:01:42Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > As I’ve been saying, it’s an artificial scarcity in Canada. Most of the land is off the market! And for the umpteenth time–what desirable land (buildable land located within commuting distance of a major city) is off the market? In areas where the Crown Land is the majority of the local landholdings (e.g., northern Ontario), how do time-to-sell measurements compare to similar measurements in the GTA? (That is, how long is land for sale in Timmins versus Toronto?) From what I’ve seen thus far, property sells much more quickly in the GTA than in the north, which is precisely opposite of the expected behavior in cases of artificial scarcity, but feel free to prove me wrong with real evidence. > [@Raygun99](#): > > My guess is you’ve never been to the Maritimes - it’s pretty nice. Like, I like Calgary, but if I was told my job was moving to Halifax, I’d be fine with that as it’s a pretty nice city. Anywhere in Florida, not so much. > > I’m kind of amused by your self-contradictory ideas here - existing Canadian cities are too dismal to consider moving to, yet we should start opening up new locations where precisely no one lives and no facilities whatsoever exist. I’m going to guess the “you” here is LC Strawhouse, not me? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/294 "2016-02-29T18:02:28Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > As I’ve been saying, it’s an artificial scarcity in Canada. Most of the land is off the market! Shield, mountains, sub-arctic, tundra, arctic, high arctic, remote wilderness (you know – or perhaps you don’t – places where most of our Crown land is): these are not what you think they are – they are not artificial scarcity. The are not artificial – they are lands and waters and are quite real. They are not scarce – they form most of the landmass of Canada. Go look at some atlases. I’m still waiting for you look at the map of crown land in Ontario found in the atlas link I gave you, and then tell me which Crown land it is that is causing high housing prices in Toronto. As long as you remain unable to point to Crown land in commuting distance to Toronto, you have no facts upon which to base your argument, so let’s see your proof. Show us the mass of crown land in commuting distance of Toronto that in your opinion has causes an artificial scarcity that has made housing too expensive for your friends, or if your friends are whinging about housing prices in London, then show me the crown land in commuting distance of London. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/295 "2016-02-29T18:04:37Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I’m going to guess the “you” here is LC Strawhouse, not me? Yes, sorry, I hit Reply on the wrong post. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/296 "2016-02-29T18:06:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I was right. You did find the news hard to take. Nonetheless, the fact remains that your housing market tanked due to the misfeasance of your banking system. It’s no surprise that a state with a high number of vacation homes bottomed out, for when folks hit hard times, vacation properties go first. > > Once you get back on your feet, Florida home prices with catch up with Nova Scotia, which has a fairly flat economy. > > Next time, don’t base your conclusions on Google spit. Put some effort into looking at why your housing market tanked. Ok, I’ll stop calling your attention to the ridiculous/medieval housing market in Canada. So… what do you think of the Leafs trading both Phaneuf and Reimer? > [@Raygun99](#): > > I’m kind of amused by your self-contradictory ideas here - existing Canadian cities are too dismal to consider moving to, yet we should start opening up new locations where precisely no one lives and no facilities whatsoever exist. I’m trying to say that the real estate prices should reflect what you get in those areas. Having these stupidly high prices keeps the cycle going of the area remaining dismal. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/297 "2016-02-29T18:12:13Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m trying to say that the real estate prices should reflect what you get in those areas. Having these stupidly high prices keeps the cycle going of the area remaining dismal. And what we’re trying to tell you is that you have an inaccurate picture of what you get in those areas. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/298 "2016-02-29T18:18:06Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ok, I’ll stop calling your attention to the ridiculous/medieval housing market in Canada. So… what do you think of the Leafs trading both Phaneuf and Reimer? You still haven’t shown what is ridiculous or medieval about the housing market in Canada, particularly as compared to the real estate markets in other developed countries such as the U.S., the U.K., France, Germany, Sweden, etc. Merely continuing to repeat “it’s ridiculous, it’s ridiculous” does not make it so. How, specifically, does the market differ in southern Ontario as compared to the New York metro area, or how does Vancouver differ from Seattle? > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m trying to say that the real estate prices should reflect what you get in those areas. Having these stupidly high prices keeps the cycle going of the area remaining dismal. And how do the real estate prices in Toronto NOT reflect what you get in those areas? Be specific, please. And you haven’t answered my question posed earlier: in what city do you live, and what is precluding you from moving to Timmins? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/299 "2016-02-29T18:26:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > As long as you remain unable to point to Crown land in commuting distance to Toronto, you have no facts upon which to base your argument, so let’s see your proof. Show us the mass of crown land in commuting distance of Toronto that in your opinion has causes an artificial scarcity that has made housing too expensive for your friends, or if your friends are whinging about housing prices in London, then show me the crown land in commuting distance of London. We could spend all year playing amateur geologist and quibbling over specific parcels. I’m looking at this nationwide for goodness sake. Relieving prices across the country will mean more disposable income, more people starting businesses, people having larger families, and more viable communities around the country - so that people don’t all have to end up in the GTA (or a short list of other high priced places) if they have ambition. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/300 "2016-02-29T18:26:54Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > And what we’re trying to tell you is that you have an inaccurate picture of what you get in those areas. Quoting myself is kind of gauche, I admit, but I just wanted to add on that “a wildly inaccurate idea of what houses cost to build” is among them, if you think Nova Scotia house prices could even be 1/10th that of Florida’s - what sort of modern, acceptable house are you constructing for under $30,000? You can barely renovate a kitchen for that price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=16)