# Why do Canada and Australia have so few people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 25, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071 "2016-02-25T04:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/341 "2016-02-29T23:11:48Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Again, I ask you - how much do you expect houses to cost, and do you understand that there is a bottom level cost at which a suitable, 21st Century livable 1000-1600 sq ft house cannot drop past, simply because of materials and labour? Quite a bit less than what some of the properties are asking for. Usually the land is the most expensive part of the equation, which is why new Toronto homes are going for 600 k for a recycled shack. Part land, part boutique pricing and most people will price their homes relative to what their neighbors homes sold for. Every property has a floating price point, and they are free to list and I am free to counter offer. If the home owner has bet right, he or she makes money, if not they take a bath. Which is why I am guessing that the property in Timmins, was listed that high. They are selling now, as the area is not investment desirable, or appears that way. Or the house was repo’ed and the bank is trying to recoup what ever it took to bring it to sellable condition. Mind you, I think that real estate agent is phoning it in. No interior/exterior shots beyond the main road and a blah description of the neighbor hood. Declan ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/342 "2016-02-29T23:13:31Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Good God, it’s a ripoff. Ripoff compared to what? Substantially more expensive properties in Toronto? 😕 > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I clearly need to type each message slowly and carefully. People are leaving Sudbury, not the GTA. [People left Sudbury](http://www.thesudburystar.com/2013/05/27/sudbury-expected-to-grow-report-forecasts) because the mining/smelting industries declined. How do high land prices factor into the equation? Moreover, the population of the GTA is growing, and growing rapidly. How do you explain why high real estate prices are not causing a population decline in the GTA? > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > If you think that it’s appropriate for land to have essentially the same cost in Nova Scotia as it does in Florida, while offering 10% of the culture and amenities (bring on the Florida jokes if you must), then don’t complain about Canada always being the United States’s dopey little brother. It might be a great situation for a small number of investors and special interests, but it’s not how you run a functional country. What culture and amenities do you think Florida has that are not present in Nova Scotia, versus the amenities in NS not found in FL? As I noted above, people in Nova Scotia tend to have higher household incomes than Floridians, and that kind of economics tends to be of great interest to far more than just “special interests.” ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/343 "2016-02-29T23:16:57Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > There are over 150 current listings for detached houses under $50,000 in Saskatchewan. Granted most of those are small, old structures in dying small towns, but you want cheap, you can have cheap. Here you go, [750 sq ft bungalow](https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/16398504/226-Gertrude-AVENUE-Canora-Saskatchewan-S0K0L0) in Canora which by Saskatchewan standards isn’t even a small town. Population 2200. Practically a city. House looks like it needs a bit of work, but the asking price is $14,900 so a buyer should be able to afford some paint and flooring. Heh, right next to Tiny. I thought that place had been taken off the map. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/344 "2016-02-29T23:17:40Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > There are over 150 current listings for detached houses under $50,000 in Saskatchewan. Granted most of those are small, old structures in dying small towns, but you want cheap, you can have cheap. Here you go, [750 sq ft bungalow](https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/16398504/226-Gertrude-AVENUE-Canora-Saskatchewan-S0K0L0) in Canora which by Saskatchewan standards isn’t even a small town. Population 2200. Practically a city. House looks like it needs a bit of work, but the asking price is $14,900 so a buyer should be able to afford some paint and flooring. Thats not bad actually, I kinda like it. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/345 "2016-02-29T23:21:07Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Quite a bit less than what some of the properties are asking for. Usually the land is the most expensive part of the equation, which is why new Toronto homes are going for 600 k for a recycled shack. Part land, part boutique pricing and most people will price their homes relative to what their neighbors homes sold for. > > Every property has a floating price point, and they are free to list and I am free to counter offer. If the home owner has bet right, he or she makes money, if not they take a bath. Which is why I am guessing that the property in Timmins, was listed that high. They are selling now, as the area is not investment desirable, or appears that way. Or the house was repo’ed and the bank is trying to recoup what ever it took to bring it to sellable condition. > > Mind you, I think that real estate agent is phoning it in. No interior/exterior shots beyond the main road and a blah description of the neighbor hood. > > Declan Oh sure, but since LC wants us to start new communities somewhere, there’s a base build amount that a house is going to cost, just from lumber, labour, etc. No one’s building you a $30k house that’s single-family detached size **anywhere** , because you’d run out of money before you got it framed. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/346 "2016-02-29T23:22:56Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Thats not bad actually, I kinda like it. > > Declan If you can scrape together enough to splurge, for $25k you can have [this](https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/16465073/304-Main-STREET-Climax-Saskatchewan-S0N0N0) palatial 1100 sq ft house with some absolutely gorgeous 20’s woodwork. Check out the arched cabinetry between the living and dining area. Unfortunately in the middle of uncompleted renos, but again, $25k. Plus you’d get to say you live in Climax. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/347 "2016-02-29T23:25:41Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Ripoff compared to what? Substantially more expensive properties in Toronto? 😕 > > [People left Sudbury](http://www.thesudburystar.com/2013/05/27/sudbury-expected-to-grow-report-forecasts) because the mining/smelting industries declined. How do high land prices factor into the equation? > > Moreover, the population of the GTA is growing, and growing rapidly. How do you explain why high real estate prices are not causing a population decline in the GTA? Look - people need a certain amount of disposable income in order to do things like have families, establish savings, start businesses, consume products, buy second homes, tide them over if they lose jobs, etc, etc. If you don’t think that having a high proportion of everyone’s income going into some overvalued piece of property has any negative consequences for society, then I don’t know what to tell you. > [@slash2k](#): > > What culture and amenities do you think Florida has that are not present in Nova Scotia, versus the amenities in NS not found in FL? As I noted above, people in Nova Scotia tend to have higher household incomes than Floridians, and that kind of economics tends to be of great interest to far more than just “special interests.” I can’t seriously answer this - no offense but you’re in full mafia-lawyer mode here. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/348 "2016-02-29T23:29:52Z")
Seriously, how much of this country have you seen? Have you ever left the GTA? What do you imagine exists, or doesn’t, in places other than Toronto? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/349 "2016-02-29T23:30:16Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Oh sure, but since LC wants us to start new communities somewhere, there’s a base build amount that a house is going to cost, just from lumber, labour, etc. No one’s building you a $30k house that’s single-family detached size **anywhere** , because you’d run out of money before you got it framed. Ah, got it. Declan ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/350 "2016-02-29T23:32:27Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Seriously, how much of this country have you seen? Have you ever left the GTA? What do you imagine exists, or doesn’t, in places other than Toronto? That’s a trick question. According to this thread you fall off the edge of the world if you leave Southern Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/351 "2016-02-29T23:32:51Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > If you can scrape together enough to splurge, for $25k you can have [this](https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/16465073/304-Main-STREET-Climax-Saskatchewan-S0N0N0) palatial 1100 sq ft house with some absolutely gorgeous 20’s woodwork. Check out the arched cabinetry between the living and dining area. Unfortunately in the middle of uncompleted renos, but again, $25k. **Plus you’d get to say you live in Climax**. Yeah, I think I am going to be spending some time on the sask real estate market. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/352 "2016-02-29T23:37:58Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > That’s a trick question. According to this thread you fall off the edge of the world if you leave Southern Ontario. No, what we’re saying is you don’t wander into the land of orcs if you leave the GTA for one of the smaller communities some distance removed from it, or - god forbid - move to Halifax or Moncton or Brandon or Peterborough or Medicine Hat or numerous other smaller communities around the country, where people make comfortable livings and raise families. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/353 "2016-02-29T23:39:42Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > No, what we’re saying is you don’t wander into the land of orcs if you leave the GTA for one of the smaller communities some distance removed from it, or - god forbid - move to Halifax or Moncton or Brandon or Peterborough or Medicine Hat or numerous other smaller communities around the country, where people make comfortable livings and raise families. Hey, I would LOVE to see each of those areas develop a self-sufficient metro area which allows young people to say screw the GTA. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/354 "2016-02-29T23:42:23Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Look - people need a certain amount of disposable income in order to do things like have families, establish savings, start businesses, consume products, buy second homes, tide them over if they lose jobs, etc, etc. If you don’t think that having a high proportion of one’s income go into some overvalued piece of property has any negative consequences for society, then I don’t know what to tell you. Sure. What is household income in Toronto, compared to household income in the rest of Canada? > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I can’t seriously answer this - no offense but you’re in full mafia-lawyer mode here. No, I’m not. Nova Scotia, e.g., has had around 20-25 murders a year; Florida regularly has close to a thousand. Even allowing for the difference in population, that’s a tremendous gap. Violent crime in general is much much higher in the Sunshine State, and a lot of people don’t really want to raise families where the family members might get shot. Nova Scotia has public health care; Florida does not. Florida’s public schools are notoriously bad; Nova Scotia seems to have a better reputation in this regard. Household income is higher in Nova Scotia. Life expectancy is higher in Nova Scotia. These may not be important amenities to you, but they are significant for many people. Sure, Florida has other attributes that are more important to some populations (sunshine and beaches, e.g.), but every place has trade-offs. If you are not willing to consider those trade-offs, what can I say? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/355 "2016-02-29T23:43:00Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Holy shit, I just saw that the house lot is 0.066 acres. And it’s near a donut shop. That going for $129K is supposed to be an example of cheap real estate? > > > [@by Grey](#): > > > > LC why would anyone move to Sudbury if they didn’t need to? I mean it’s lovely an all now that the trees are growing back but there is no economic incentive to move people there. People don’t move to the middle of fucking nowhere to build a nice house for the kids, they move to the closest affordable place with a connection to economic activity. > > > > Since 82% of Canada’s economy is tied to Services, which ties back to population density, there is almost no incentive to live away from dense population centres with their high connection densities. > > I agree with you and it’s really a tragic thing. It’s a vicious circle of high land prices \> no disposable income \> small families \> no businesses \> kids leave. No you’re inverting how it works. Cities are centres of economic activity because of the number of connection between individuals and between businesses. By adding a single new person to Toronto you’ve enabled 5,000,000 connections. Now go and add a connection to Sudbury…160,000 connections. If you were an economic agent where would you go? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/356 "2016-02-29T23:44:14Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Hey, I would LOVE to see each of those areas develop a self-sufficient metro area which allows young people to say screw the GTA. And what evidence leads you to conclude that a lack of available land is the reason none of those places has developed into a large metro area? Any at all? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/357 "2016-02-29T23:53:46Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Hey, I would LOVE to see each of those areas develop a self-sufficient metro area which allows young people to say screw the GTA. And what do you think happens to housing prices in these areas when they grow to several million people, rivaling the size of Toronto? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/358 "2016-03-01T00:07:25Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > No, I’m not. Nova Scotia, e.g., has had around 20-25 murders a year; Florida regularly has close to a thousand. Even allowing for the difference in population, that’s a tremendous gap. Violent crime in general is much much higher in the Sunshine State, and a lot of people don’t really want to raise families where the family members might get shot. > > Nova Scotia has public health care; Florida does not. Florida’s public schools are notoriously bad; Nova Scotia seems to have a better reputation in this regard. Household income is higher in Nova Scotia. Life expectancy is higher in Nova Scotia. These may not be important amenities to you, but they are significant for many people. > > Sure, Florida has other attributes that are more important to some populations (sunshine and beaches, e.g.), but every place has trade-offs. If you are not willing to consider those trade-offs, what can I say? Good God. Of course some things can look “better” if not a soul is living there. Do you really think any celebrity or any teenage daughter on earth wouldn’t pick Florida? (hey, just ask Phil Esposito). > [@Grey](#): > > No you’re inverting how it works. > > Cities are centres of economic activity because of the number of connection between individuals and between businesses. By adding a single new person to Toronto you’ve enabled 5,000,000 connections. Now go and add a connection to Sudbury…160,000 connections. If you were an economic agent where would you go? The more viable options people have the better! Not everyone wants to go to New York, especially if they can be a big fish in Omaha or Indianapolis or whatever. > [@slash2k](#): > > And what evidence leads you to conclude that a lack of available land is the reason none of those places has developed into a large metro area? Any at all? The whole problem is a lack of evidence one way or another. All I have to go by are my own experiences/observations and those of people I know. I suspect I’m on the right track, but I would love to see an experiment to dump some crown land or at least some critical analysis of public land holdings. In this thread people are just throwing around cliches about “worthless land” and “mountaintops” which are completely unconvincing, honestly. > [@Raygun99](#): > > And what do you think happens to housing prices in these areas when they grow to several million people, rivaling the size of Toronto? Great! Keep growing until the demand levels off. Now that sounds more like a functional country. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/359 "2016-03-01T00:09:40Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > And what do you think happens to housing prices in these areas when they grow to several million people, rivaling the size of Toronto? It doesn’t even take growing to several million people. Look at what happened to home prices in Fort McMurray, Alberta, during the oil boom. In early 2014, the median price for a single-family detached house there was above $780,000. How many young professionals could start a family in that neighborhood? Now, of course, prices are plummeting because of the plunge in oil prices, with prices already down by over $100K. People are moving out of the oil patch. If oil prices stay low, home prices in Fort Mac may return to pre-boom levels as the population drops. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/360 "2016-03-01T00:16:16Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The whole problem is a lack of evidence one way or another. All I have to go by are my own experiences/observations and those of people I know. I suspect I’m on the right track, but I would love to see an experiment to dump some crown land or at least some critical analysis of public land holdings. In this thread people are just throwing around cliches about “worthless land” and “mountaintops” which are completely unconvincing, honestly. 100 years ago, the Crown dumped most of the best agricultural land in the country on the market for a song. Today, you can purchase houses built on that land such as the two I linked up-thread for less than the cost of the material they’re built out of. Why do you think there’s no evidence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=19)