# Why do Canada and Australia have so few people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 25, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071 "2016-02-25T04:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/361 "2016-03-01T00:19:33Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Good God. Of course some things can look “better” if not a soul is living there. Do you really think any celebrity or any teenage daughter on earth wouldn’t pick Florida? (hey, just ask Phil Esposito). Not everybody is a celebrity or has a teenage daughter. Moreover, this observation undercuts your entire argument: how many teenage daughters want to move to Sudbury, or Timmins, or Climax? If you are basing where to live solely on a teenager’s whims and fancies, places with lots of sunshine are going to be more popular than places where winter sunshine is almost unknown and the temperature never gets to bikini weather. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The more viable options people have the better! Not everyone wants to go to New York, especially if they can be a big fish in Omaha or Indianapolis or whatever. And they have this choice right now. More want to live in New York than Omaha, Toronto rather than Timmins. Do you not approve of their choices? > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The whole problem is a lack of evidence one way or another. All I have to go by are my own experiences/observations and those of people I know. I suspect I’m on the right track, but I would love to see an experiment to dump some crown land or at least some critical analysis of public land holdings. In this thread people are just throwing around cliches about “worthless land” and “mountaintops” which are completely unconvincing, honestly. What experiences/observations do you really have, though? You apparently live in the GTA, and so do your friends. You could pick up and move to Saskatchewan or Nova Scotia tomorrow, but you have chosen not to do so. The observation I’m getting out of this is that you really really like the amenities of the GTA and don’t want to move to a smaller town; you just want _other_ people to move away so you can enjoy lower prices. Guess what: those other people have the same inclination to stay in the GTA as you do. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Great! Keep growing until the demand levels off. Now that sounds more like a functional country. The demand in the GTA certainly hasn’t leveled off; you’ve spent much of the thread complaining about it. In the states, demand has not leveled off in the San Francisco Bay area, or the New York metro area, or any of dozens of other spots around the country, _and there is no reason to believe it will anytime in the foreseeable future._ Has this escaped you? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/362 "2016-03-01T00:26:03Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Look - people need a certain amount of disposable income in order to do things like have families, establish savings, start businesses, consume products, buy second homes, tide them over if they lose jobs, etc, etc. You are sounding like theists who say their deity must exist because otherwise they’d be unhappy. Nobody here is saying having to spend a huge proportion of your income on a place to live is good. They’re just saying that the effect of high demand is high prices. Lotsa people want to live in GTA, so GTA prices are high. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > That’s a trick question. According to this thread you fall off the edge of the world if you leave Southern Ontario. No actually nobody is saying that. Actually they are posting to say that there are very cheap places well outside Southern Ontario for people to go to if they want. You are ignoring the implications of those posts for your fundamental premise. The evidence ain’t going to go away just because if you acknowledge it you are going to have to admit you are wrong. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The whole problem is a lack of evidence one way or another. All I have to go by are my own experiences/observations and those of people I know. No actually the evidence has been given to you time and time again but you are ignoring it. There are cheap places to live in Canada. You have been given examples, and you have not denied the truth of those examples. This fact will not go away no matter how much you want to ignore it. The reason people live in (and pay high prices for living in) GTA is because they want to, not because they have to because there is no option. Your second sentence sounds typical of those who will not accept the reality of anything beyond their own nose; you are being given evidence but because it contradicts your limited personal experience you will not accept it (even as you are unable to deny it). And I’m ignoring your comment implying that the worth of a place is defined by what celebrities and teenage daughters want. It’s the only kind thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/363 "2016-03-01T00:28:06Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Great! Keep growing until the demand levels off. Now that sounds more like a functional country. Except what you are missing is that once the Greater Moncton area hits that several million population point, housing prices there will have increased to approximate Toronto’s, because guess what, people will want to live there, and will bid up the prices of properties, while Toronto’s housing prices will not be affected in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/364 "2016-03-01T00:40:30Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Not everybody is a celebrity or has a teenage daughter. Moreover, this observation undercuts your entire argument: how many teenage daughters want to move to Sudbury, or Timmins, or Climax? If you are basing where to live solely on a teenager’s whims and fancies, places with lots of sunshine are going to be more popular than places where winter sunshine is almost unknown and the temperature never gets to bikini weather. Huh? My point was that it makes sense for remote Canadian land to cost less than property in the U.S. sun belt. Costing more is bizarre. > [@slash2k](#): > > And they have this choice right now. More want to live in New York than Omaha, Toronto rather than Timmins. Do you not approve of their choices? > > What experiences/observations do you really have, though? You apparently live in the GTA, and so do your friends. You could pick up and move to Saskatchewan or Nova Scotia tomorrow, but you have chosen not to do so. The observation I’m getting out of this is that you really really like the amenities of the GTA and don’t want to move to a smaller town; you just want _other_ people to move away so you can enjoy lower prices. Guess what: those other people have the same inclination to stay in the GTA as you do. > > The demand in the GTA certainly hasn’t leveled off; you’ve spent much of the thread complaining about it. In the states, demand has not leveled off in the San Francisco Bay area, or the New York metro area, or any of dozens of other spots around the country, _and there is no reason to believe it will anytime in the foreseeable future._ Has this escaped you? I don’t live in the GTA but I used to. I think the demand in the GTA is artificial - the rest of the country has been left too undeveloped so people end up there by necessity. As I said - people wish there were other options. Stompin’ Tom Connors made a career out of singing about lonely country people migrating to Toronto. Ever see [this movie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goin%27_Down_the_Road)? > [@Gorsnak](#): > > 100 years ago, the Crown dumped most of the best agricultural land in the country on the market for a song. Today, you can purchase houses built on that land such as the two I linked up-thread for less than the cost of the material they’re built out of. Sounds great to me. Let’s dump some more in other places. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/365 "2016-03-01T00:44:37Z")
Let me give you an example from where I live: prices in Brisbane are high, similar to Toronto. But around Brisbane there is any amount of available land (we are not trapped within a ring of Crown Land) and in those places you can buy a house and land for little more than it costs to build a house. There is a catch though: there’s no work out there and you will face probably about 4 hours commute a day. For reasons that you may (or may not) understand, even with plenty of land available, the price pattern is just the same as Toronto’s. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/366 "2016-03-01T00:47:40Z")
Oh and by the way in Australia there are any number of tax breaks and subsidies for living in rural areas. There is any amount of non-Crown land. The government positively _encourages_ regional development. Makes no difference. People don’t want to live in inhospitable places without industry. Your premise is just plain wrong, LC ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/367 "2016-03-01T00:48:24Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I clearly need to type each message slowly and carefully. People are leaving Sudbury, not the GTA. [A total of 512 people left Greater Sudbury for Toronto last year [2014], but 539 came the other way and moved here from Toronto.](A total of 512 people left Greater Sudbury for Toronto last year, but 539 came the other way and moved here from Toronto.) ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/368 "2016-03-01T00:49:13Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You are sounding like theists who say their deity must exist because otherwise they’d be unhappy. Nobody here is saying having to spend a huge proportion of your income on a place to live is good. They’re just saying that the effect of high demand is high prices. Lotsa people want to live in GTA, so GTA prices are high. > > No actually nobody is saying that. Actually they are posting to say that there are very cheap places well outside Southern Ontario for people to go to if they want. You are ignoring the implications of those posts for your fundamental premise. The evidence ain’t going to go away just because if you acknowledge it you are going to have to admit you are wrong. > > No actually the evidence has been given to you time and time again but you are ignoring it. There are cheap places to live in Canada. You have been given examples, and you have not denied the truth of those examples. This fact will not go away no matter how much you want to ignore it. The reason people live in (and pay high prices for living in) GTA is because they want to, not because they have to because there is no option. > > Your second sentence sounds typical of those who will not accept the reality of anything beyond their own nose; you are being given evidence but because it contradicts your limited personal experience you will not accept it (even as you are unable to deny it). > > And I’m ignoring your comment implying that the worth of a place is defined by what celebrities and teenage daughters want. It’s the only kind thing to do. I’ll answer your personal insults by saying that YOU (and others in this thread) sound like someone who owns overvalued property and are terrified that costs will come down, never mind that high property values have a destructive effect on society, especially young people (which is what I’m concerned about and the only reason I’ve even thought about this stupid topic) ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/369 "2016-03-01T00:55:13Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Oh and by the way in Australia there are any number of tax breaks and subsidies for living in rural areas. There is any amount of non-Crown land. The government positively _encourages_ regional development. > > Makes no difference. People don’t want to live in inhospitable places without industry. Your premise is just plain wrong, LC I’ll do you the favor of refraining from commenting on Australia since I’m not familiar with that country. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/370 "2016-03-01T00:56:49Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Look - people need a certain amount of disposable income in order to do things like . . . buy second homes Crown land in the sub-arctic needs to be settled so that people can buy second homes? Housing in Canada is too expensive because people cannot afford second homes? LC, you might wish to re-think your position. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/371 "2016-03-01T00:59:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Crown land in the sub-arctic needs to be settled so that people can buy second homes? > > Housing in Canada is too expensive because people cannot afford second homes? > > LC, you might wish to re-think your position. You can keep cherry-picking my posts to throw in more cliches about tundra, mountaintops and the Arctic, I don’t mind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/372 "2016-03-01T01:13:37Z")
I’m kinda surprised that after 8 pages, this thread is still GQ Declan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/373 "2016-03-01T01:16:51Z")
The posting costs in the other fora are to high for young people to live there. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/374 "2016-03-01T02:33:32Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Huh? My point was that it makes sense for remote Canadian land to cost less than property in the U.S. sun belt. Costing more is bizarre. Nova Scotia isn’t remote. And I really don’t understand why you think it “bizarre” that Canadian houses often cost more than houses in the Sunbelt. There are several reasons why this is so. For starters, most southern states have lower income levels–richer people buy better houses. Many houses in the southern U.S. are built without the thick walls and thick insulation and high-efficiency furnaces that you need for a Canadian winter; they’re not needed, and you can save that money. Construction in Florida is pretty much a year-round affair; in more northern climes, you can’t work outside in winter, which compresses the time available which makes it cost more. In areas that are remote you’re far from lumberyards and plumbing wholesalers, and you have to pay extra for the extra transportation expenses. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I don’t live in the GTA but I used to. I think the demand in the GTA is artificial - the rest of the country has been left too undeveloped so people end up there by necessity. As I said - people wish there were other options. Stompin’ Tom Connors made a career out of singing about lonely country people migrating to Toronto. Ever see [this movie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goin%27_Down_the_Road)? “Has been left” too undeveloped? Who exactly do you think is the person or entity doing the leaving? Answer: all of those people who would rather live in Toronto. The government doesn’t decide that a major metro area is going to be built at coordinates X,Y–Canada isn’t Brazil or Kazakhstan. People decide where they’re going to live, and those collective decisions develop an area or leave it undeveloped. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Sounds great to me. Let’s dump some more in other places. Why? The problem you are attempting to solve (no metro areas out in the boonies) is not a problem born of a land shortage, and it cannot be fixed by dumping land. However, you can **create** other problems by dumping, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. Failing to solve one problem while creating two or three more is not what I’d call a smart move. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/375 "2016-03-01T02:37:14Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’ll answer your personal insults by saying that YOU (and others in this thread) sound like someone who owns overvalued property and are terrified that costs will come down, never mind that high property values have a destructive effect on society, especially young people (which is what I’m concerned about and the only reason I’ve even thought about this stupid topic) Or in summary: 1/ You are motivated (quite understandably) by a concern that property prices are too high 2/ I’m motivated by self interest; 3/ You have no substantive rebuttal to what I said; The problem is that even assuming points 1 and 2 are correct, you are still wrong about why property prices are too high and no amount of alleged motivations in any particular direction is going to change that. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’ll do you the favor of refraining from commenting on Australia since I’m not familiar with that country. Well there’s median property price information concerning Brisbane and surrounds available on the web. And you have access to Google Maps. Is the problem that you are not familiar, or that if you were to actually check on what I’m saying it may be that my counter example may be valid, so you are offering excuses? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/376 "2016-03-01T02:47:17Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > I’m kinda surprised that after 8 pages, this thread is still GQ > > Declan I too have been admiring this hijack, but was disinclined to junior mod. Since you’ve raised you head above the parapet perhaps I can give you a boost. 🙂 Just speaking to the facts, \*\*LC \*\*introduced his new topic in post #63 and as best I can determine there has not been a single post directly on the original topic since. A couple addressed national population counts but only within **LC** ’s context. Truly an epic Hijack for the Ages since we’re now up to #376. And as with so many things involving Canadians, everyone remains polite; insistent, but unfailingly polite. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/377 "2016-03-01T02:48:57Z")
Except for that damn Australian who’s being grumpy as usual. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/378 "2016-03-01T03:22:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I too have been admiring this hijack, but was disinclined to junior mod. Since you’ve raised you head above the parapet perhaps I can give you a boost. 🙂 > > Just speaking to the facts, \*\*LC \*\*introduced his new topic in post #63 and as best I can determine there has not been a single post directly on the original topic since. A couple addressed national population counts but only within **LC** ’s context. > > Truly an epic Hijack for the Ages since we’re now up to #376. And as with so many things involving Canadians, everyone remains polite; insistent, but unfailingly polite. 🙂 Hah - it’s been fun, though I think I’m finally burned out on this thread since we’ve all been talking in circles for a while now. Although some of the people in this thread are beyond hope 😛 … maybe a few others will be inspired to look at the Canadian map a bit more critically! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/379 "2016-03-01T03:36:36Z")
@ **Princhester** : And a couple of testy gringos, yours truly included. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071/380 "2016-03-01T06:05:40Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’ll do you the favor of refraining from commenting on Australia since I’m not familiar with that country. [LGMs]We are eternally grateful [/LGMs] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-canada-and-australia-have-so-few-people/747071.md?page=20)