# Why do Christian Fundies denounce their enemies as "humanists"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817 "2014-03-29T04:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/1 "2014-03-29T04:17:30Z")
I mean, think about it: In the Christian world-view, what is the most important thing in the Universe? Hint: Not God. God is, in the Christian world-view, the best and wisest and most powerful thing in the Universe. But the most **important** thing, the thing with which every Christian is supposed to be most concerned, is the individual human soul. Every Christian’s first duty is to save his own soul, and every Christian’s second duty is to save others’ souls. As for this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o’erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why it appears no other thing to Christians but disposable scenery in a crude, savage and childish medieval morality play! And [that willfully ignorant savage C.S. Lewis does nothing but to reinforce that point!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/2 "2014-03-29T04:22:12Z")
Cites, evidence, some sort of indication what you’re talking about? What people are these who say this? How common is it? Is it a fringe thing? A Fox News thing? Throw us a bone here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/3 "2014-03-29T04:25:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Cites, evidence, some sort of indication what you’re talking about? What people are these who say this? How common is it? Is it a fringe thing? A Fox News thing? Throw us a bone here. :dubious: You really don’t need a single bone of any body to support the proposition that Fundies denounce “humanists,” and you motherfucking know it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/4 "2014-03-29T04:29:46Z")
… Wow. That’s not poisoning the well or anything. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/5 "2014-03-29T04:41:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > … Wow. That’s not poisoning the well or anything. There is no other reasonable way in this particular debate might be framed, and you motherfucking know it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/6 "2014-03-29T04:49:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is no other reasonable way in this particular debate might be framed, and you motherfucking know it. …Yeeeeeaaah. In any case, an argument that confuses C. S. Lewis for a “Fundie” is a pretty laughable one. If you can apologize, we may be able to have a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/7 "2014-03-29T04:58:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I mean, think about it: In the Christian world-view, what is the most important thing in the Universe? Hint: Not God. God is, in the Christian world-view, the best and wisest and most powerful thing in the Universe. But the most **important** thing, the thing with which every Christian is supposed to be most concerned, is the individual human soul. Every Christian’s first duty is to save his own soul No, seriously, where are you getting this idea from? [QUOTE=Matthew 6:33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Matthew 22:37-38] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. [/QUOTE] But if you’re really interested in the question posed by the thread title, “humanism” is often short for, or specifically refers to, “_secular_ humanism”; and a little googling turned up the following cites on secular humanism: From Wikipedia: [Secular humanism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism) From what appears to be a conservative Christian (possibly but not necessarily fundamentalist) perspective: [SECULAR HUMANISM - What is it? - ChristianAnswers.Net](http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html) From self-proclaimed secular humanists themselves: [https://www.secularhumanism.org/](https://www.secularhumanism.org/) ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/8 "2014-03-29T05:09:45Z")
Well, just think of the chaotic hellscape we’d be living in if we lived our lives with the same outlook as monsters like Isaac Asimov and Kurt Vonnegut! I think a big part of it is they conflate humanism with atheism. I’m not making a value judgement on either, but I think it’s pretty clear why a fundamentalist Christian wouldn’t like atheism. Also, there’s a common belief with that type that any good deed is less meaningful if it isn’t done “for the glory of God.” Like helping an old lady across the street will make you feel good about yourself, so unless you’re doing it “for God” you’re really just patting yourself on the back. No, it doesn’t make much sense to me either… But basically, I think they want to have a monopoly on “goodness,” and the thought that you can be a decent person on your own without resorting to a higher power is threatening to them. It also plays into their whole “Christians are under attack” delusion. While overtly Christian teachings and practices have been largely removed from public schools in the past 50 years, they still teach basic right and wrong, golden-rule type stuff to children. The Fundy crowd labels all these common sense-type ethical systems “Humanism” and calls foul, claiming that if they can’t force their Christian ideals on every child in public school, the Humanists shouldn’t be able to either. Of course just about any teaching or maxim that says “you should be nice to other people” could be labeled “humanist.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/9 "2014-03-29T05:25:30Z")
It’s a common trope on right-wing conservative religious radio. I’ll cite Bob Dutko and Roger Marsh, on KBRT, who use the term occasionally as a pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/10 "2014-03-29T06:45:59Z")
In the 70s the boogieman of the religious right was Atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair. In the 80s it was Secular Humanist Norman Lear (et al.). > [@](#): > > {…} [People for the American Way](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_For_the_American_Way) was founded by television producer Norman Lear (All in the Family, Maude, The Jeffersons, etc.) in 1981 specifically in response to what he felt was the divisive rhetoric of such increasingly influential televangelists as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. {…} > [@](#): > > {…} [Lear](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Lear#Political_and_cultural_activities) has also long been a vocal critic of the ideas held by Religious Right and has advocated for the advancement of secularism. Prominent Religious Right figures such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart accused Lear of being an atheist and holding an anti-Christian bias. {…} It did have an effect, for a while, > [@](#): > > [**Hatch amendment**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism#Hatch_amendment) > > The Education for Economic Security Act of 1984 included a section, Section 20 U.S.C.A. 4059, which initially read: “Grants under this subchapter [‘Magnet School Assistance’] may not be used for consultants, for transportation or for any activity which does not augment academic improvement.” With no public notice, Senator Orrin Hatch tacked onto the proposed exclusionary subsection the words “or for any course of instruction the substance of which is Secular Humanism”. Implementation of this provision ran into practical problems because neither the Senator’s staff, nor the Senate’s Committee on Labor and Human Resources, nor the Department of Justice could propose a definition of what would constitute a “course of instruction the substance of which is Secular Humanism”. So, this determination was left up to local school boards. The provision provoked a storm of controversy which within a year led Senator Hatch to propose, and Congress to pass, an amendment to delete from the statute all reference to secular humanism. While this episode did not dissuade fundamentalists from continuing to object to what they regarded as the “teaching of Secular Humanism”, it did point out the vagueness of the claim. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/11 "2014-03-29T07:10:20Z")
Humanists believe in the achievements man can make on their own in the elevation of their species. I understand why that upsets those that believe redemption from a superior force is the only path to that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/12 "2014-03-29T07:41:26Z")
I rather like the formulation that as a Christian one rejects belief in Gods other than theirs, and as an atheist one only needs to reject belief in one further God, thus placing the two on a similar level when the number of available Gods to reject is considered- atheists only reject one more god than a Christian! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/13 "2014-03-29T08:20:54Z")
The Humanist Association is an atheist organisation, so they’d only be referring to them as they refer to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/14 "2014-03-29T08:33:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the most **important** thing, the thing with which every Christian is supposed to be most concerned, is the individual human soul. Every Christian’s first duty is to save his own soul, and every Christian’s second duty is to save others’ souls. Are you certain about that? My concordance lists only two passages directly addressing your contextual concept of “soul”, both in Matthew (but not any other Gospel): > [@Matthew 10:28](#): > > _“28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”_ > [@Matthew 16:26](#): > > _What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?_ Every other reference uses “soul” in a purely metaphorical sense, such as _“Love/Serve God with all your heart and all your soul.”_ (Deuteronomy 6:5, 10:12, 30:6; Joshua 22:5; 2 Kings 23:25, Matthew 22:37) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/15 "2014-03-29T08:50:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: You really don’t need a single bone of any body to support the proposition that Fundies denounce “humanists,” and you motherfucking know it. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is no other reasonable way in this particular debate might be framed, and you motherfucking know it. Well, call me a motherfucker, because this atheist has no idea what you’re blathering on about. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/16 "2014-03-29T08:52:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, call me a motherfucker, because this atheist has no idea what you’re blathering on about. Typical atheist. Always fucking their goddamn mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/17 "2014-03-29T09:05:38Z")
It’s funny - I once had a radical environmentalist denounce me as a “humanist” because I put humanity’s needs ahead of those of the planet. I guess it’s a useful epithet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/18 "2014-03-29T09:50:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s funny - I once had a radical environmentalist denounce me as a “humanist” because I put humanity’s needs ahead of those of the planet. I guess it’s a useful epithet. I’ve also run across self proclaimed humanists who say that we should kill any aliens, artificial intelligences or animals uplifted to sapience because they aren’t human. The word definitely means different things to different people. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/19 "2014-03-29T09:57:28Z")
Because humans are motherfuckers?😕 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/20 "2014-03-29T10:37:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > Cites, evidence, some sort of indication what you’re talking about? What people are these who say this? How common is it? Is it a fringe thing? A Fox News thing? Throw us a bone here. > > :dubious: You really don’t need a single bone of any body to support the proposition that Fundies denounce “humanists,” and you motherfucking know it. It may be an “American” thing that has not creeped over the border to Canada. While the OP is easily understood as self-evident among anyone who has been exposed to Fundamentalist or Evangelical broadcasts or writings in the U.S., it may not be so easily recognized elsewhere. “Humanism” began as a movement within late pre-Reformation Catholicism that made a number of religious people (Catholic and non-Catholic) nervous as a potential revival of the Pelagian heresy. (That movement said that people could come to God seeking salvation as opposed to the traditional church’s position that God offered salvation and people were only capable of accepting it.) It regarded humanity as basically perfectable, with some humanists explaining that the perfecting agent was God and others explaining that humans could perfect themselves. During the nineteenth century, a number of anti-religious people saw science as a tool that would permit humanity to perfect itself, regardless of any gods, and adopted the word as self-descriptive. There are still religious humanists around in the mold of Desiderius Erasmus (1466 - 1536) and to distinguish between them and those who felt that no gods were needed for humans to perfect themselves, the phrase secular humanist was coined. Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, of course, reject even the views of the religious humanists, so they only occasionally tack “secular” onto the phrase when they are in condemnation mode. Religious conservatives in the U.S. have perceived several successive decisions by the U.S. Supreme court that interpreted the separation of church and state to mean that religious activities should not be entwined with government activities, (such as school prayer, religious Christmas displays purchased by communities, etc.), as attacks on their beliefs that God should be an integral part of the public life of the nation. The choice by various atheist groups to self-label as “humanists” simply reinforces their belief that humanism, in any form, is evil. = = = **Moderating** This question could have easily been handled in General Questions, although with the rancor already expressed in the thread, I will leave it here, now. **BrainGlutton** , your overreaction to the questions about the OP is inappropriate. Most condemnation of humanism occurs in the U.S. and acting as though that American phenomenon should be widely known across the entire English speaking world is rather parochial on your part. In the future, if you are asked for evidence of a claim, simply support it with facts without posting figurative spittle on the screen. [/Moderating] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817.md?page=2)