# Why do Christian Fundies denounce their enemies as "humanists"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817 "2014-03-29T04:17:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/21 "2014-03-29T11:08:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I mean, think about it: In the Christian world-view, what is the most important thing in the Universe? Hint: Not God. God is, in the Christian world-view, the best and wisest and most powerful thing in the Universe. But the most **important** thing, the thing with which every Christian is supposed to be most concerned, is the individual human soul. Every Christian’s first duty is to save his own soul, and every Christian’s second duty is to save others’ souls. As for this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o’erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why it appears no other thing to Christians but disposable scenery in a crude, savage and childish medieval morality play! And [that willfully ignorant savage C.S. Lewis does nothing but to reinforce that point!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters) I’m going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that the reason is to remove dignity from the other side, making it easier to poke them with sticks. Much the same way as religious fundamentalists may be referred to as Fundies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/22 "2014-03-29T11:44:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the most **important** thing, the thing with which every Christian is supposed to be most concerned, is the individual human soul. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > No, seriously, where are you getting this idea from? Indeed. I’m an atheist, but I remember enough of my Christian upbringing to see the false premise here. Man is a creation of God, subjugated to Him. The soul is something one needs to worry about “saving”, but it is not elevated above God. _Nothing_ is elevated above God. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/23 "2014-03-29T12:57:27Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Of course just about any teaching or maxim that says “you should be nice to other people” could be labeled “humanist.” And fundamentalists don’t do tolerance. Humanists think we should be nice to everyone, which includes people perceived by Christian fundamentalists to be enemies. Like Muslims and Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/24 "2014-03-29T13:02:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Nothing_ is elevated above God. What about God’s mom? She was probably a pretty cool lady. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/25 "2014-03-29T14:19:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Nothing_ is elevated above God. It is a Divine Truth that God does not wear a hat. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/26 "2014-03-29T18:38:04Z")
I may have misinterpreted but when I looked at secular humanism in the late '70s or early '80s, it struck me a being an atheist religion and, being non-religious, I didn’t give it much thought after that. I wonder if American fundamentalists prefer to attach secular humanism because they too see it as a religion and therefore something they understand well enough to attack. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/27 "2014-03-29T19:21:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’ve also run across self proclaimed humanists who say that we should kill any aliens, artificial intelligences or animals uplifted to sapience because they aren’t human. Bollocks to “they aren’t human”, but if the chaps with the big eyes don’t want five rounds rapid maybe they shouldn’t tip cows and probe people’s buttocks so willy nilly. As for the AIs, pulling the plug is just common sense. Skynet’s not going to prevent itself, is it ? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/28 "2014-03-29T20:01:23Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > . . . . I wonder if American fundamentalists prefer to attach secular humanism because they too see it as a religion and therefore something they understand well enough to attack. I don’t think they do understand it. They try to portray it (as you said you saw it at first) as an “atheist religion.” It isn’t. And it isn’t actually all that human-centered, only being so in the sense that humans are the only ones around right now that have the power to improve the world (or harm it.) **Sitnam** got it right: “Humanists believe in the achievements man can make on their own in the elevation of their species.” But, further, most humanists also believe in improving the environment, in rescuing endangered species, etc. We aren’t so human-centric as to want to kill all the deer and put up condos. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/29 "2014-03-29T20:06:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is a Divine Truth that God does not wear a hat. > > 😉 Seriously? Need a beret to be cool. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/30 "2014-03-29T20:44:35Z")
It’s not humanists that are so bad, it’s those _secular_ humanists.\* \*It’s important to make such distinctions, as in the case of the 1930s Klansman who once told an audience “We’re not anti-Catholic, it’s those _Roman Catholics_ we’re against.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/31 "2014-03-29T21:15:42Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > While overtly Christian teachings and practices have been largely removed from public schools in the past 50 years, they still teach basic right and wrong, golden-rule type stuff to children. Well, there you have it. The shaman who performs a magic dance before each hunt and gets a share of the resulting meat isn’t going to be pleased if hunters start going out without his blessing and visibly enjoying exactly the same success rate. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/32 "2014-03-29T22:06:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Indeed. I’m an atheist, but I remember enough of my Christian upbringing to see the false premise here. Man is a creation of God, subjugated to Him. The soul is something one needs to worry about “saving”, but it is not elevated above God. _Nothing_ is elevated above God. My experiences concur. Humans and their souls were basically playthings to the deity, whose plan was sacrosanct. The plan is for the Jews to have some desert time? Harden that Pharaoh’s heart! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/33 "2014-03-30T13:29:09Z")
Just gonna say, as a conservative Christian or Christian conservative who has been involved to various degrees of the Christian Right over the past 30+ years, I knew exactly what BG was talking about- and of course, it was the Secular Humanist philosophy as espoused in the Humanist Manifestos I & II. Educated CC’s such as Francis Schaeffer pointed out that, of course, there is a Christian humanism that sees human worth, rights, dignity & potential as rooted in our creation in God’s image & redeemed through the Saving Work of Jesus. Gotta go now to get ready for church. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/34 "2014-03-30T14:10:37Z")
I’m not particularly in-the-know with regard to Christian Fundies but receiving denouncement from them is generally a badge of honor for intelligent folk. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/35 "2014-03-30T23:59:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Alessan** > It’s funny - I once had a radical environmentalist denounce me as a “humanist” because I put humanity’s needs ahead of those of the planet. I guess it’s a useful epithet. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’ve also run across self proclaimed humanists who say that we should kill any aliens, artificial intelligences or animals uplifted to sapience because they aren’t human. The word definitely means different things to different people. The writer Edward Abbey, when confronted by a large rattlesnake on his doorstep one morning: > [@](#): > > I’m a humanist; I’d rather kill a man than a snake. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/36 "2014-03-31T00:54:07Z")
I would say that to fundamentalists, the word evokes the whole complex of modern thought to which they are opposed: lack of piety, the elevation of the importance of human thought, including science, above the eternal religious truths and the traditions they feel are practically the same thing, the tolerance of what they believe to be sinful behavior, the whole shooting match. Humanism has been associated with the dissolution of moral boundaries since the French Revolution and Rousseau. It has, you could say, a dark face and a light face. You can despise fundamentalism as much as you want, but they have a certain point. I also came to state the obvious that fundamentalism isn’t limited to Christianity, nor is opposition to humanism limited to that branch of fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/37 "2014-03-31T02:05:21Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > . . . Humanism has been associated with the dissolution of moral boundaries since the French Revolution and Rousseau. It has, you could say, a dark face and a light face. You can despise fundamentalism as much as you want, but they have a certain point. . . . Only in so far as their definitions of such boundaries are self-regarding. Take, for instance, the Divine Right of Kings. Humanists say that people should be self-governing, and not ruled by accidents of heredity (which usually can be traced back to conquest anyway.) The fundamentalists (of bygone eras) condemn this is the dissolution of a moral boundary – but only because they have defined the divine right of kings to be a moral tenet to begin with. Enlightenment thought was about changing moral definitions, regularizing them and especially putting them upon the basis of reason. To those who are not amenable to reason-based processes of deduction, this can seem to be an attack upon morality. To others of us, it is the first great advance in morality in centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/38 "2014-03-31T02:51:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Only in so far as their definitions of such boundaries are self-regarding. > > Take, for instance, the Divine Right of Kings. Humanists say that people should be self-governing, and not ruled by accidents of heredity (which usually can be traced back to conquest anyway.) The fundamentalists (of bygone eras) condemn this is the dissolution of a moral boundary – but only because they have defined the divine right of kings to be a moral tenet to begin with. > > Enlightenment thought was about changing moral definitions, regularizing them and especially putting them upon the basis of reason. To those who are not amenable to reason-based processes of deduction, this can seem to be an attack upon morality. To others of us, it is the first great advance in morality in centuries. Well yep. I wasn’t saying they have the right or only definition, just that they indeed have one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/39 "2014-03-31T03:37:04Z")
Fair enough; my apologies. “You know who else had a definition of morality?” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817/40 "2014-03-31T05:02:07Z")
Here’s an [article](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/behind-the-rights-phony-war-on-the-nonexistent-religion-of-secularism-20120425) written by Rick Perlstein in Rolling Stone which covers the issue. Money quote (but there’s so much in there, I can’t really summarize it without quoting pretty much the whole thing): > [@](#): > > One of the most robust and effective conspiracy theories on the right, the notion that “secularism” – or, just as often, “Secular Humanism” – is a religion is meant to be taken entirely literally: right wingers genuinely believe it refers to an actually existing religious practice. How do conservatives know? Because, they say, the Supreme Court said so. It was, as religious historian and Lutheran minister Martin E. Marty has written, “an instance where one can date precisely the birth of a religion: June 19, 1961.” That was the day the Court ruled in the case of Torcaso v. Watkins striking down the Maryland Constitution’s requirement of “a declaration of belief in the existence of God” to hold “any office of profit or trust in this state” — specifically, in atheist Roy Torcaso’s case, the office of notary public. In his decision, Justice Hugo Black, writing for a unanimous court, further asserted that states and the federal government could not favor religions “based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs” – and, in a fateful, ill-considered, and entirely offhand footnote explained: “Among religions in this country which do not teach what would be generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-christian-fundies-denounce-their-enemies-as-humanists/684817.md?page=3)